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Ah ok, so if the benefits are immense looks like the rest doesn't matter then.

Hopefully that benefit/risk was decided democratically and publicly and not based on some assumption by a handful of people online.


Only used by a few hundred millions persons daily to receive their push notifications: https://xmpp.org/uses/gaming/

And also a few hundred millions gamers worldwide: https://xmpp.org/uses/social/

Ah I almost forgot the tiny market of a few other millions persons using it for chatting: https://xmpp.org/uses/instant-messaging/

But other than that yes XMPP is pretty dead.


I suppose you're trying to answer in good faith, but -to me at least- the problem is that XMPP has always worked beautifully for single-server deployments (or let's say, single organization), i.e. when a game company does their internal chat and absolutely controls not even the client app, but also the client version.

The problems have always been the interaction between different clients, or federation.

So XMPP, the protocol, is quite widespread in use "internally" at dozens of huge deployments.

XMPP as a general chat protocol with people federating and using different clients is basically dead. (Although I suppose it's in a better shape now than 5-8 years ago, maybe Snikket and some other players are managing to give it a more widespread comeback).

Source: Absolutely anecdotal, just a random guy who has used XMPP for work over 10 years ago, ran several own XMPP servers, and who shut it all down because none of the contacts continued using it.

PS: Oh, and if CCP actually still uses XMPP for EVE Online, it's not working very well. The ingame chat goes nuts at least once per week, with "only" 30k people online and most of them separated to channels of probably not more then 5k except in extreme situation.


EvE still does use XMPP for chat and yes, it's still a nightmare if large fleets declare local as primary. It's gotten much better since they moved it to AWS because they were running into bandwidth issues. Come to found out when you use XML as transport, you are sending over a ton of extra characters and at scale, that adds up.


Good


And suddenly most of the World discover that the Internet is "just a bunch of cables connected together".


It's a series of tubes!


That's because... everything was made from de beginning to push people to go to the App Store.


No, I use iOS and friends in part because I want good, well-made apps that work well and integrate into the OS well - and not poorly made webapps that don't have an address bar. To that end I dislike all the faux-native iOS apps that are just a webview with a menu. It's always quite obvious when people do that.

So even if I would've known about HSWAs being a thing (and not just "bookmarks on the home screen", which is approximately the exact same thing, but with an address bar), I wouldn't have cared to use them. Like evidently 99.99% of people.

Yes, every thread on this has one or two people saying how badly this impacts them, yet, they are always vague about what these were used for. I have yet to see a single concrete example.


there are poorly made native apps too

there is a fix number of good programmers...

these good programmers can create the exact same wonderful interactive pixels on your screen whether they use native or web tech, if web tech is allowed

it is the decision of the developers what they use and offer to you but again, if good developers migrate to become good web programmers in the future that you fear then you become good web apps from them, you will not even know the difference

currently, most good programmers use native languages because Apple restricts even now web tech and good programmers are payed to program in swift

you can chill since those websites and web apps you see bad were made by bad programmers not because web tech is inferior... you know, js just instructs native browsers that are native apps so actually web tech can be just the same (with better security if you use secure browsers)

if 1 million programmers create native apps and half is bad half is great and you really see a discrepancy in native vs. web itis simply because more bad than great programmers are currently "designing" web sites

good programmers will not be forced to use web tech and fail to deleiver good UX :)


It's apparent that by good you mean skillful and not benevolent. However, even skillful programmers write bad code especially when under time and budget constraints.


Everything is a trade-off. You can't publish native apps without Apple's 30% tax for example.


The App Store didn’t even exist until the iPhone 3G. Everything was suppose to be a web app until everyone, including HN, bitched about the lack of native apps.

Now here you all are 15 years later bemoaning what you have helped create.


The obvious solution is to have both. Also, HTML5 at the beginning was much less feature-rich than it is now.


And yet web apps have NEVER been able to do the things native apps could, in fifteen years. That argument doesn't make sense.


Do you think "apps" that are just webviews count as a native app?


The same subset of people who just go to the App Store just take their car to the dealership for oil changes (a lot)

As tech people we tend to see through apples "dealer" bullshit, just like car people.


Is there a way that I can not like the same things that you like without you thinking that I’m not smart?


[flagged]


You too can get off this train rather than play the victim with ad hominem attacks.


It seems you're using words you don't know the meaning of.

Please educate yourself before making such statements, unless you enjoy looking... quiet dumb.

> Ad hominem means “against the man,” and this type of fallacy is sometimes called name calling or the personal attack fallacy. This type of fallacy occurs when someone attacks the person instead of attacking his or her argument.

I literally said in my comment that the person I was responding to didn't actually articulate an opinion (nor any argument for that matter), as such, this is inapplicable.

...play the victim? Please enlighten me, where exactly did I do that...?


So you mean that Apple is not doing things for the Greater Good and is actually a company that tend to build gold prisons around their customers to prevent to get as much money they can from them ?

Nahhh, I don't buy that.

- Sent from my iPhone


We literally call it the Stockholm Syndrome


*centralized and siloed social-networks

Federated, standard and decentralized network just live by themselves :)


That doesn't make sense. Federated social networks have the same hard problem as centralized ones: social networks require people.

The part that's hard is the people, not the technology. Centralization and federation have nothing to do with it.


2024 will be a good year for Airbus... again


It's time to give XMPP more love <3

XMPP in 2023 is having all the modern features that you can expect while being massively scalable and having a really nice ecosystem (there is still some quirks here and there but it really improved the past few years).


Absolutely yes, I have fond memories of the Pidgin client, which handled everything gracefully, and also libpurple.

This was ages ago, is pidgin still one of the best xmpp clients, or are there better ones now?

I remember that pidgin even used with facebook, unfortunately facebook dropped xmpp as someone else in this thread mentioned!


But XMPP encoded everything in XML? This seems like a really high overhead.


Fortunately, there's an RFC for people concerned about this :) https://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0295.html


Wow, my first thought reading through it was "wait they're just wrapping XML in JSON, what in the world is happening here", eyes widened after reading the completely contradictory introduction, until I saw the reason for that RFC.


Was this published on april 1st?


the internet mostly works with lengthy markup languages, they compress well, no problem


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