That tax structure is not part of the Nordic social democratic welfare system that you’re dishonestly clout chasing from, but part of a right wing / free market shift in Swedish politics from the last few decades.
So it's "dishonest" to refer to Sweden's "Nordic tax structure" because it's only from "the last few decades?" When people think of the "Nordic model, they mean the combination of free markets, high individual taxes, and robust welfare states that the Nordic countries adopted in the 1990s. Nobody is talking about whatever Sweden when I was in preschool.
That extrapolation is doing some serious work. From a salesy conference talk all the way to the Zig community being toxic from the top down. Impressive axe grinding.
Hmm, it’s a conference talk? Conferences are for networking and promotion.
Furthermore, considering the current state of affairs in software dev, anyone evangelising software quality is going to get some benefit of the doubt from me.
Another obnoxious behaviour I’ve observed lately, is trying to attach whatever pre-existing pet methodologies one had to the AI-hype bandwagon like some sort of personal vindication orgy.
Or it’s just people with different opinions that took charge.
I find it funny reading sometimes how my country learned to conform on something that was previously a bit unique and people are like ”yeah, even they figured out it doesn’t work!”. No, you dingus, the people that wanted to conform were just elected. It worked perfectly fine otherwise.
No, it's embarrassing being obsessed with good tone to the point that people behaving badly should never be called out for it.
The article provides good background into how it got to this point - and it fits well with doing an opportunistic AI rewrite after being acquired by an AI provider.
It is not about good tone it's about not being hateful and rude. Why is this that hard to pick apart?
Why do devs believe being rude is somehow a sign of honesty? They are orthogonal. This post needed none of the mean-spirited attacks that it contained to make its points. It is only hurt by the attacks as seen by the focus on "tone" throughout these comments.
It's all about tone. The original bad behavior is done without overt "bad tone" but if the response to it is spicy then the former is ignored and the latter is condemned despite being of lesser severity.
I can buy that it can be good corporate politics to not upset the superficial crowd that will immediately lash out on tone, but I will not judge someone rightfully reacting on bad behavior that they've been on the receiving end of.
Also, I didn't say being rude is a sign of honesty, that's you extrapolating.
You can call it superficiality but there are just some of us who believe that treating people right is the core of this. You're viewing that as some kind of superficial virtue signaling but if we're not treating people with respect then there's not a point in doing any of this, it gets to the very thing that Kelley is complaining about.
To summarise it, as I believe this would be an exercise in futility to discuss with you: Bun/Jarred very obviously threw Zig under the bus when it was opportune and self-serving to do so after joining Anthropic.
So you don't have any. And after reading all of Jarred's posts and responses you found that he repeatedly thanked Zig and said he respected Andrew but that, after donating over a hundred thousand dollars to their work, his project had different needs than before and needed to change stack?
Incredible display of bad faith discussion. You should be ashamed.
Sigh, as expected. Incredible display of being unable to read between the lines and be dazzled by superficiality. But I don't expect even base levels of street smartness here. Why do nerds on a "well ackshually"-mission always think they can demand work of other people? "Please pointlessly spend time to walk me through something my comment history clearly shows I've already made up my mind on". I'm not your fucking caretaker.
Nothing superficial about 120K USD donations. I have personally seen nothing but good vibes coming from Bun to Zig and Andrew. Re-writing is not "throwing under the bus" you make it out to be.
I’m sure lots of rich assholes take comfort from this unfortunately common attitude.
This entire blog post exists due to someone clearly needing to vent, try to work backwards from that. If things were as peachy amicable as you guys imagine, this thread wouldn’t exist.
That someone needs to vent is not proof of anything. People get their panties twisted for the tiniest things. I would expect that if Andrew had a real valid reason than it would appear in this post. But it's really nothing but personal attacks with little substance.
The history of humanity is full of biting polemics and attacks on the character of others, just read Voltaire. Sometimes, attacks are deserved.
Yes, a world in which everyone is professional and "plays nice" sounds great but it also quickly becomes a mechanism for suppression of the truth. Not the situation here, but "decorum" expectations are sometimes precisely one of the functions that help bad people maintain power (consider how difficult it can be for minorities or marginalized people to speak truthfully about what's happened to them). Sometimes one person being blunt, honest, and a little rude is a necessary step in clearing ground for others to be more upfront about the bad behavior of individuals.
The argument isn't to avoid calling out "bad" behaviour, it's that you can do so with a professional (or at least not actively childish) tone. Using phrases like "stinky manager" while taking multiple jabs at Jarred's personal and educational background (implying by not going to university he was too stupid to think critically about his path forward) paints a weirdly childish yet elitist viewpoint. The blog post reads as vindictive, akin to something along the lines of "screw you kid, glad to be rid of you, and thanks for the $120,000 btw."
I don't interact with Zig or Bun, but I certainly haven't been enticed to try Zig after this.
I'm sorry but I honestly think this is just being superficial wanting to push it through some kind of corporate speak filter to be able to stomach it.
> Using phrases like "stinky manager"
I would've used a worse adjective given the WLB tweet etc. Is it just because stinky itself has a childish tone to it rather than something like shitty? Or do one need to reach to somewhat open-ended terms like "questionable" to be palatable?
> implying by not going to university he was too stupid to think critically about his path forward
I read that as emphasizing the Thiel Fellowship part, not the lack of university education.
> I don't interact with Zig or Bun, but I certainly haven't been enticed to try Zig after this.
I'm so tired of "I've never played [game] & have never had any intention to play [game] whatsoever, but given [newfound-grievance] I wont buy it!"-style dismissals - talking about childishness.
It's depressing seeing so little critical thinking despite clear and obvious incentives (Bun now being part of Anthropic) behind the reckless decisions that's been made here. Judging by this thread a well-formed article is all that's required for lots of people to just take everything at face value since it confirms the biases of what's currently fashionable.
I'm similarly distraught by comments like this. They are a staple, and they always fail their own standards. Critical thinking would lead me to believe that your judgement is heavily clouded, and that it is way more likely you're the one who's biased; either to find other people to be generally below you, or to find people being receptive to this effort any positively to be simply wrong. I'm even wondering if this is a stock comment of sorts.
Strong subjective judgements about an inexact but large sounding fraction of people, without any actual details, is a red flag the size of a skyscraper. And to top it all off, your conclusion is extremely convenient too: you're right, people are wrong, despite the blatant facts otherwise. Not exactly the hallmark of a particularly robust position, not for me anyways.
That this is a technological decision rather than rationalizations (e.g. fixing self-inflicted problems are now marketed as a rewrite win) that Rust is a better fit for an Anthropic-owned project.
Indeed as the developers behind Bun, it would be rather difficult for them to not be the originators of the bugs that they have now fixed with this.
Why is your unsupported speculation about the guy (or the people above him) supposedly deciding that "Rust being a better fit for an Anthrophic-owned project" a critical insight exactly? You not being convinced by the rationale presented does not mean he himself wasn't. Do you imagine critical thinking as just coming up with and preferring (to you) plausible-sounding alternative explanations?
Because respectfully, that's very much not how I understand the word, and I'd hope most people do not either. Maybe that's the issue. Post-hoc rationalization being a rather shaky gate with people (and AI) anyways.
Worse still, neither of the options you present are trustworthy summaries necessarily in the first place. From the blogpost:
> What if, instead, I spend a week testing if Anthropic's new model can rewrite Bun in Rust?
That sounds to me like something of an excited but cautious dare, not an arbitrary technological decision, nor some hyper-strictly rationale-supported one. It's the same kind of exploratory excitement anyone who used these things at all would be familiar with: you have an unlikely project idea, with some contentious details that are fair (see their blogpost), and some that would be simply annoying to justify (see your comment). Buuuut you also have heaps of corpo money, a lingering suspicion and interest, and AI tokens to burn. And so "fuck it, we ball". Not much to believe on it when it's a shared experience. And it's not because of just having read so somewhere, despite your assertions otherwise.
