> Good job beating the system. If you tracked all the hours and mental energy you spent on these tasks vs the amount of money returned, what do you think the hourly rate would come to?

I also churn. After an initial investment of learning the concepts, I spend very little time. I can go onto a major issuer's site and spot a good deal in minutes. I have a small text file where I note offers I see on Reddit that may be of future note.

I don't recall how long it took to "learn churning" but it was small chunks spread out over a long period.

I periodically take breaks when coding to rest my brain. I'm taking one right now in fact :)

So I'd argue the time cost was zero/near zero since I wasn't going to be "productive" during those breaks anyways.

Then again, I'm not an extremeist - I mostly keep an eye out for destinations I'd like to vacation to, what airlines service them, then sign up with a card that can get me points to pay for that flight.

In the end, I'd estimate I save 1-2k on airfare per year plus some spare change in cashback. (Credit card rewards are treated as discounts and thus not taxable income, so getting tax free airfare then putting the money into an IRA or 401K is +EV).

I don't let myself get wrapped up in getting an extra percent back on my tacos or something though - in fact through analysis I've found that keeping entertainment money as cash reduces spending to a point it's better to use cash than use a CC and get rewards for spending at bars, restaurants, and the like.

I can't speak directly for the person you replied to, but it's almost certainly worth their while. We're not talking about $100-200 in potential benefits. We're talking about thousands of dollars (in the case of international business class seats).

The reason is because on the legacy airlines, international business class seats usually cost 4+ times more than the economy class seat on the same flight but you can redeem just 2-3 times more miles for a business class seat rather than a economy class seat.

One of the issues with this hobby is that the reward redemption flights are typically not as good as the non-redemption flights (i.e. you might have a layover as opposed to a direct flight).

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For instance, the United/Lufthansa/Swiss alliance has flights from NYC to Paris departing May 27 and returning June 5.

Economy seats are ~$650 or (60k United miles + $105). For economy, those miles would have a valuation of ~$0.0091/mile (($650 - $105) / 60k miles). Chase somewhat regularly offers signup bonuses on their United credit cards of 70k United miles if you spend $3k within 3 months (you are charged a $95 annual fee in this case). So the ROI is ~$450 ($650 - $105 - $95) in exchange for spending $3k on that new credit card.

Business seats are ~$2900 or (140k United miles + $161). For business, those miles would have a valuation of ~$0.0196/mile (($2900 - $161) / 140k miles). The same Chase offer as before applies. But you have to open the card, meet the spending requirement, get the bonus, close the account, and reopen the account and repeat once more. The ROI in this case would be ~$2549 ($2900 - $161 - $95 - $95) if you spend $6k on those two new credit cards.

In either case, it shouldn't take you more than a ~10 hours of active work to get those kinds of returns. You do need to occasionally check the banks' websites to see if they're offering any special deals, occasionally check the airlines to see if there's any favorable redemptions available, etc. In the case of economy, the ROI is ~$45/hr. For business it's ~$255/hr.

It doesn't take any time. I open a card, pay my rent with the card to get the bonus, pay off the card (no interest), and then put it away and cancel a year later.

Edit: Also, I consider it a hobby. It's fun to try to beat the system. And the reward for "beating it" is incredible experiences (i.e. Singapore Suites) that would be far out of reach if I didn't play. Would you ask the same question of someone who cooks or plays video games what their ROI is?

Damn I wish my apartment took credit cards for payment. That is the one single thing I don't put on my card.

The service Plastiq will send a check to your landlord funded with a credit card for a 2.5% fee. It’s not worth it to buy miles, but definitely worth it to earn a signup bonus where the rewards are worth 10%+ of the minimum spend requirement.

From my own experience, it's well above minimum wage, and even very pessimistically, above $150/hr. There's a high hours/$ learning curve up front and then after that you just do it on autopilot and it doesn't take any time at all.

(IME, CC bonuses are less time intensive than checking/saving bonuses. You just sign up for a new card off one of the blogs that tracks current offers as soon as your min-spend is met on the last one, and put your ordinary spending on the new card.)

I do not churn cards, so I spend nearly zero time. But, I do have a few cards that are used for specific reasons and end up returning 'free' money. For example, if you buy a lot from Amazon, the Amazon Prime Card is definitely worthwhile for %5 back at Amazon and Whole Foods.

Something embarrassingly small. It’s not worth it.

Eh, even if you don't value airline/hotel points, you can pretty easily get ~$500/card in value in sign up bonus just for opening the card and using it for expenses you were going to incur anyway. You need to be discerning about what you apply for and only apply for the good deals, but it really doesn't take much time.

For someone on HN, if you spend more than a couple of hours mental energy per card in total, it's not worth it.

I took a first class flight to Japan during peak Christmas season on points from one credit card that I earned the bonus on by paying my rent with a credit card...it would've cost $15k out of pocket (even economy flights are almost $1000 one way during the holidays...)

I am always hesitant on valuing redemptions for the price that would've been paid for the ticket, primarily because no one in their right mind would pay that price in the first place.

You can tell pretty easily who paid and didn't pay. Don't think the Japanese businessmen sitting in first used points.

But they still don't pay the full fare. They are atrociously high so that they can be heavily discounted, especially when it comes to corporate contracts.