Regardless, a framework is a way to jump-start someone in developing for a given language. Honestly, I've taught at least 5 developers PHP in about half the time it would normally take using a framework than without. The same applies to any other language.
It's easy to write your own framework, but I can almost guarantee you that it will have more bugs than any of the larger, open source frameworks out there. They may have their chinks, but those get largely fixed and tend to benefit the most people. Using a well-known, and well-tested, framework means you have access to a greater pool of developers, and they don't have to learn the idiosyncracies of something you've written because you could.
And while I am in the process of writing my own framework (see https://github.com/josegonzalez/git-php), I still prefer using someone else's framework. It's nice to be shown other ways of doing things.
"If you know LANGUAGE well, it's almost as efficient--possibly moreso--to program your own minimal ARCHITECTURE framework. LANGUAGE has so much of what you need done for you that only an efficient IMPORTANT_DETAIL is a bit tricky."
> but I can almost guarantee you that it will have more bugs than any of the larger, open source frameworks out there.
I think you can definitely guarantee it :). Before stopping dev work on Uno I ran into plenty of bugs that I didn't anticipate that would have been quickly weeded out by a bigger community. Many times I realized, "oh, this is why all the frameworks do it that way", only after doing things a way I thought was "simpler".
> "If you know LANGUAGE well, it's almost as efficient--possibly moreso--to program your own minimal ARCHITECTURE framework. LANGUAGE has so much of what you need done for you that only an efficient IMPORTANT_DETAIL is a bit tricky."
Good point. I do think PHP is a bit unique though in the respect that many people argue that PHP itself is a framework/architecure for web apps. But I largely agree with everything you've said.
> Regardless, a framework is a way to jump-start someone in developing for a given language.
I tend to disagree. As a PHP developer, and in charge of hiring and interviewing other PHP developer, I all too often see what I refer to as "CakePHP developers" or "CodeIgniter developers". It's one thing to know how to use the various frameworks, and even have a personal preference - but when too many people are only aware how to accomplish things using one of those frameworks, it gets downright scary. It's almost as infuriating as getting code samples that are basic extensions of Zend classes...
In the end I want a developer to get their work done - and if a framework helps - great - but they also need to know their way around the language without needing that crutch.
If you had asked me 3 years ago to write PHP code to do anything, I would have asked you what PHP was. 6 months after the fact - and 6 months into using CakePHP - and I was definitely a useful PHP developer. I can say the same for those I used CakePHP as a model for.
As far as only knowing the framework, you are preaching to the choir. I regularly give support to people in IRC who forget you can actually write regular PHP code - Reflection class, closures, etc. - in CakePHP. Sometimes even OOP.
A framework gives you structure. Good developers go back and fill in the blanks on the language. Bad developers don't need a framework to be bad, they would give you horrible code samples regardless.
Regardless, a framework is a way to jump-start someone in developing for a given language. Honestly, I've taught at least 5 developers PHP in about half the time it would normally take using a framework than without. The same applies to any other language.
It's easy to write your own framework, but I can almost guarantee you that it will have more bugs than any of the larger, open source frameworks out there. They may have their chinks, but those get largely fixed and tend to benefit the most people. Using a well-known, and well-tested, framework means you have access to a greater pool of developers, and they don't have to learn the idiosyncracies of something you've written because you could.
And while I am in the process of writing my own framework (see https://github.com/josegonzalez/git-php), I still prefer using someone else's framework. It's nice to be shown other ways of doing things.
"If you know LANGUAGE well, it's almost as efficient--possibly moreso--to program your own minimal ARCHITECTURE framework. LANGUAGE has so much of what you need done for you that only an efficient IMPORTANT_DETAIL is a bit tricky."