Tangentially related: Boston Dynamics' BigDog, which utilizes hydraulic actuators, would constantly leak hydraulic fluid while operating, be it through normal weepage or catastrophic leaks (e.g. burst hoses). Initially, they used petroleum-based hydraulic fluid, but as they began to operate out in the woods etc, this proved to be untenable, so they eventually switched to using a vegetable-based hydraulic fluid that would biodegrade within a month.
Bonus: when catastrophic hydraulic leaks inevitably occurred and sprayed hot hydraulic fluid over the hot exhaust, you would be rewarded with the lovely smell of a deep fryer!
Tangentially related, in the early 00’s in a datacenter belonging to a large multinational corporation, there was an IBM as/400 that frequently leaked puddles of yellow liquid.
A puddle was found under it; the puddle was cleaned up. The puddle came back. Repeatedly.
The data center management was perplexed. The internal as/400 professionals were stumped. IBM techs were called in. They assured the datacenter’s management that this couldn’t be coming from the hardware. The machines simply didn’t contain yellow fluid.
No leaks in the ceiling, no overhead pipes, it wasn’t coming from the chassis, no other hardware exhibited this weirdness. Food and drink had never been permitted inside. But it was coming from somewhere, because no matter how many times they cleaned it up, another puddle appeared.
When finally a camera was surreptitiously deployed to surveil the afflicted machine, it didn’t take long before the camera revealed one of the datacenter staff members was just walking up to it and urinating on it. No particular reason, just something he felt like doing.
Most people can't taste it at all. And let's celebrate its 'invention' by the mammals so many million years ago as a brilliant solution to the problem of how to temporarily store and then excrete nitrogen in a harmless way as against the uric acid route used by birds and reptiles. People who have a test for the nasty H. pylori bug swallow a solution of urea and find it tasteless as far as I'm aware.
Or expose it to warm temps in a lot of industrial processes?
It's a distinction without meaning, urea based products like DEF end up smelling like pee/ammonia. Laypeople usually specifically compare it to a cow urine smell
I bet the IBM workers sniffed it, but then decided they couldn't write in the report "stop pissing on our servers and blaming us!". So instead they wrote "the servers don't contain any matching yellow liquids. We recommend using a camera to identify the source of the leak".
The hydraulic autopilot steering system in my boat uses a biodegradable soy-based hydraulic fluid, and it’s at least 20 years old. Similar non-marine products are readily available on amazon.
The first thing I do is print a label with my email address and stick it on the bottom of the label maker, out of anger that my last label maker grew legs and walked away in a datacenter.
These tests seem to be done at elevated temperature or some other accelerated method, because no oil oxidizes noticeably in mere hours.
My experience at low temperatures is that the difference is much bigger than in that test. A thin layer of sunflower oil takes a week or two to turn into hard to remove sticky goo, olive oil... basically doesn't seem to do that at all.
I cut/thread pipe with Olive oil. I also use in on material in my watch lathe.
I started using it because I ran out if cutting fluid, and noticed no difference.
(It seems like I'm always being told to use this oil, or cleaner, when I'm working on a project. Before paying for the brand name, I always look up the MSDS on the product. Many products can be made at home with experimenting.)
Some of my scuba diving friends go ice diving in Canadian lakes. They use chainsaws to cut access holes through the ice, and always lubricate those chainsaws with vegetable oil so as not to contaminate the water with petrochemicals.
I live way off grid, and we just use our own olive oil, on our electric chainsaws, powered by solar power. Apart from the actual hardware, it’s a neatly closed loop.
HE GEN II Natura
is a hydraulic oil that is both biodegradable and a certified environmentally friendly product, biodegrading by at least 60% within 28 days. The oil does not accumulate in plants and animals and does not spread in ecosystems. The oil has a synthetic base with largely bio-based and renewable content and exceeds the certification requirements. The oil has minimal toxicity, is non-toxic to aquatic life and has been checked for allergenic and environmentally hazardous substances. HE GEN II Natura is specially adapted for use in sensitive nature areas as it is based on synthetic esters and is certified compliant with the requirements for environmentally friendly hydraulic fluid. Compared to mineral-based hydraulic oils, HE GEN II Natura has less impact on the environment in the event of an accidental leak or spill.
Komatsu SCO Natura
environmentally friendly saw chain oil has vegetable and renewable content. The oil is biodegradable, non-bioaccumulative and does not spread in ecosystems. The product is also non-harmful to humans, animals and plants. This saw chain oil offers superior equipment lubrication and adheres well to the saw bar and saw chain, reducing wear and extending the equipment's service life. Moreover, oil consumption can be reduced by up to 50%. Komatsu saw chain oil is suitable for use in sensitive nature areas that risk harm from conventional mineral-based oils.
This does not jibe with my experiences or anybody I know's experiences, I think it needs more development. I've had friends who used vegetable oils then they dried out or worse turned rancid and gummed stuff up. Especially bad if a tool is left for a while, or in a hot place, though I guess this is not so much a problem in Europe. This doesn't seem like a significant enough problem to justify that anyway, "thousands of gallons" across a continent is not actually that much.
When you say they used "vegetable oils", do you mean they used a vegetable oil bought from the grocery store, or that they used one of the blended biodegradable oils specifically made for chainsaws?
I'm not familiar with chainsaw oils specifically, but there's a similar trend in gun lubricants, where many (non-military) ones are vegetabe oil blends with additives that are supposed to prevent gumming etc; I suspect these are very similar, if not the same compounds.
There is still an ongoing debate on whether these are good enough etc. On one hand, some people swear by them, and non-toxicity is especially nice when it's going to be heated rapidly right next to your face. On the other hand, there are certainly quite a few recorded cases of things gummied up when stored long term. It appears that the additives do help quite a bit, but it's still a failure mode to consider, unlike synthetic oils.
Tbh I wouldn't worry much about toxicity compared to the shit in GSR. Anecdotally I've never tried it but some people have tried something vegetable and it went sticky anyway. Cleaning guns regularly is enough of a pain in the ass already without maybe having to before going out shooting. I'd also never use it in a CCW or something ready for home defense because of that risk.
FireClean was notorious for trying to shut up a guy who disclosed that it's basically just canola oil with additives. But even so, there are many people who use it without it gumming up. When it happens, it's usually when you store a gun lubricated without using it for a long time.
Christmas tree farms. They plant tiny forests and cut down every tree, running saws for many hours. I grew up near Christmas tree farms in Western Oregon, and its an odd but significant agricultural activity in certain areas. Over multiple plantings the amount of oil sprayed around could cause issues. In the area where I lived some farms have converted to wineries, so that somewhat marginal land does get converted back to food production.
The article says it's not straight vegetable oil, but lubricants "based" on vegetable oil, specifically with additives to address oxidation (going rancid).
If you look at history you'll find that animal and plant oils were used as lubricants for a long time, but were replaced by petroleum specifically because of those problems you noted.
There are drying oils and non-drying oils. Drying oils are what you want to put on your cast iron pan to polymerize the oil into a coating. Tung oil would be a bad choice for chain lubricant because it will gum up, but castor oil should be more suitable for said chain.
I was once an adherent (no pun intended) of this method, but nowadays I saturate my pans with sunflower oil instead.
After every use they get a soapy wipe out, rinse, then a one minute heat with a quarter inch of oil in the pan. The iron just soaks it right up so it’s all ready and greasy for the next fry.
Painting the pans with flaxseed oil leaves an uneven spidery brown pattern. If food sticks to the pan you have to sacrifice some of the coating. It wasn’t a durable solution for me.
I just use a few drops of canola oil, wipe it down, then heat it up enough for any water to start evaporating. By the time it cools, it’s dry. Unless I’m missing something, this uses ~ 1000x less oil. It also avoids build up of oil.
I’d expect your cast iron to become sticky / blistered over time, though I haven’t tried the oil you use.
Indeed, gas engines probably drip or exhaust more oil. Certainly 2 stroke chainsaws.
There's a rumor among cyclists that "3 in 1 oil" is bad for bikes because it contains vegetable oil that gums up. But cyclists will debate about oil for days.
Mineral oil is fine for a fingerboard, but there is a caveat. Being a non-drying oil, it won't dry and nothing will stick to it. So if you put mineral oil once, it is mineral oil forever. If you try to put linseed oil or tung oil on it later, it will not adhere.
I use boiled linseed oil and beeswax on the fingerboards of guitars I've built. Linseed oil is a drying oil which will polymerize when it reacts with air instead of going rancid like food oils.
Drying oils or mineral oil should both work for the job as long as you do not try to mix them.
Mineral oil is commonly used to coat/maintain butcher block cutting boards, and as a storage coating on high carbon knives. It is recognized as safe by the FDA when produced according to food safety guidelines and under quality control.
Food-grade mineral oil is highly refined and doesn't contain any of the carcinogenic aromatics. It could be considered a lower molecular weight petroleum jelly. It's also used as a laxative.
Isn't a certain degree of gumming-up advantageous? It would keep the oil in place after it works it's way into all the nooks and crannies, ending up more like a grease. This behaviour could be good for corrosion prevention.
Oxidized vegetable oil is the most disgustingly tacky substance that I know. It's like a cross between rubber, glue, and grease. It is very resistant to removal with "intuitive" methods (but using un-oxidized oil and heat tends to work) and it doesn't lubricate, it sticks. It can't possibly be good for lubrication, I'd say. Unless you can somehow control the process so that it oxidizes just a little.
That's not how vegetable oils gum, they go sticky in a way that's not like grease. Hard to explain but if you feel them both there's a huge difference. Grease will stick but isn't stick-y in the same way if that makes sense.
Without falling into an oil debate, no cycle mechanic I’ve ever spoken to uses or would recommend wd40 for chain oil. It’s far too thin and is primarily for freeing stuck parts and cleaning. It’s not meant for long term lubrication - it dries out or get washed off almost instantly.
3 in 1 is fine, but the main advantage of a proper chain lube is that they don’t attract grime and dirt as quickly
Waxing (also possible with bee wax) once you streamline the process (chain link, hot water for cleaning, cheap wax warmer the one women use and since the new chains (every 5000-10000km) are heavily pre-lubed you need 3 steps to remove the mineral oil: 1. soak in gasoline or alike for 1 day, 2. degrease and then 3. finish it off with white spirit) is imo the best for the chain.
Clean and smooth. I rewax every week (200km), takes me 10 min in total, also a a convenient way to inspect and adjust my whole drivetrain, regularly.
WD40 is absolutely a lubricant. The WD40 is not a lubricant thing just needs to die already. Of course it’s not the best lubricant for every job. In fact it’s probably not the best lubricant for any job, but it’s a good enough lubricant for many jobs. It’s also a penetrant and water displacer. Versatile products usually aren’t the absolute best choice for a given use case, but that doesn’t make versatility bad.
I think this is part of the love for the machine, and is a part of hacker culture I find endearing even if it's not necessarily rational. I'd put tweaking your Linux windowing system into the same category :)
We have a pecan tree in our back yard. These are "self pruning" trees, meaning they occasionally drop heavy limbs. When a big one fell, a neighbor volunteered to slice it up with his chainsaw for us. He let us know he was using canola oil to lubricate the saw, as the wood was good for smoking.
Apparently mechanical engineers learn about lubricants: how they're made, why they differ, what to use when. Greases, oils, and penetrating lubricants all are variations of the same thing: fats, soaps, additives. You figure out what your application is and how the lubricant needs to perform, then design your lubricant to purpose. (fwiw the market for lubricants is about $125B globally and grows every year)
Also, really dumb fact: you can make gallons of your own sexual lubricant for pennies. Just mix a teaspoon of xantham gum with a pint of water (and if you want to preserve the whole batch, 10 drops of grapefruit seed extract). The stuff you buy in stores is about 100x more expensive and contains potentially-harmful additives.
I use nothing but vegetable oil in my saws and have been doing so for decades. When the frying oil becomes too dark I filter it through a paper drip coffee filter and store the result in the wood shed, to be used when harvesting and preparing the ~8m³ of firewood needed to heat the farm through the Swedish winter. It works fine in the cooler climate we have here, in really hot places you might want to add something to make it stick better. I hardly ever get a broken chain, the bearings don't wear excessively and I get to use them until the chisels have been filed to the last remaining mm.
Stihl makes soy oil based chain oil - you can get it at mcguckin in boulder, so it must be relatively available. I bought some to try it and its fine. Unlike other uses for lubrication - the relatively short life of chain oil (most is expelled quickly) means that oxidative drying isn't really an issue.
You can't even buy a non-vegetable chainsaw oil in my country.
The only time I used such a thing was when I was a kid and I put regular machine oil into the chainsaw. My father never explained the difference between different oils to me. I will never forget the frown on the chainsaw repairman's face.
Using some Mazola on my chainsaw because I can't find or didn't buy proper oils sounds like a typical thing I'd do (that people will shame me for but I don't care)
Admittedly my chainsaw is a small cheap electric one, but still. Unsurprising to me that it turns out it is ok to use what I have on hand.
I used a chainsaw for several years, cut up some trees into cordwood, and used only plain canola oil the whole time. There were places on the saw that got a bit gummy, but functionally it worked fine.
Lubricating a chain is one of the least demanding tasks we have for oil. Unlike in the crankcase of an engine or in the pumps of a hydraulic system, there is very little pressure or temperature involved. Unlike e.g. bicycles, chainsaws have oilers that constantly feed additional liquid onto the chain, so the lubricant doesn't even have to adhere that well. (The best "oil" for a bike chain is actually wax since it adheres very well and is less dirty than oil.) In green wood, the main thing that the oil is doing is keeping water out of the chain.
For some definition of "snugly". It's really easy to tighten a chain so much that the saw won't run. Loosen it a bit, and the saw cuts fine yet it's easy to pull a bit of the chain out of the slot (the latter with the saw off). At least, that's the case for the cheap/old saws that I've used...
Don't worry I'm not running any saw without bar oil. Or rather, used motor oil, since I have plenty of that.
This is interesting, because I was just reading how unused vegetable oil is in common use for AK-47 rifles in Africa. (Nobody clarified if other rifles receive the same treatment.)
which is pretty vague on most products but indicates ignition temp of their "lubricating gun oil" is 410F so anything around that won't start a fire, at least. that aligns closely with popular frying oils.
in general even modern ARs can be run totally dry for hundreds or thousands of rounds, until carbon fouling stops them. so it probably doesn't matter so much. worst thing that would happen is you'd get a gummy residue or a bit more carbon buildup. notably, lower quality gun oils already pose those problems.
By “significant” I take you to mean, “causing enough harm to be noticeable.” I don’t know the answer to that.
Consider that chainsaws are only one of many polluting tools that people use in forests, e.g., snowmobiles, generators, of course cars. There are many non-petroleum pollutants as well, like lead ammunition and trash. I believe it’s a useful practice to reduce harm from each of these as much as possible. That reduction might come from banning them outright to small changes like using vegetable oil as chainsaw lube.
The opposite approach is requiring harm to be demonstrated by each of these small things in order to encourage or require change. This has gotten us roughly to where we are now, with much wilderness in the country despoiled by human practices.
All of us are better served by being conservative in this context: by intentionally doing the least harmful things possible, and looking for ways to improve.
A key piece of advice in performance optimization is to profile first. The same should apply to environmentalism. Some interventions have orders of magnitude more impact than others, and we shouldn’t pretend otherwise
This is one of those times when programming analogies don't work. Ecosystems are diabolically complex and nonlinear. A small perturbation might be okay one year and collapse everything the next, depending on a thousand other factors. It's good to try, but it would be a terrible policy to mandate.
That sounds like an excuse to completely ignore any evidence and just try whatever interventions you feel like. A far better approach would be to quantitatively evaluate the different possible options, and then take the one most likely to have the biggest impact. Maybe you pick the wrong one due to some complex effect you didn’t account for, but it is still better than picking at random!
I'm not sure how you got from "it's a good idea to try, but terrible to mandate universally" to "do anything you feel like", but it's a very uncharitable interpretation of what I said.
My point is that restricting yourself solely to the particular set of things you can understand quantitatively with all the real world practicalities that entails is limiting. Other than that one word, we're in complete agreement.
It occurs to me that large computer programs can also be diabolically complex and nonlinear. Changing a single byte of code can result in a huge change in process behavior.
I generally disdain the temptation to use computer analogies for natural processes too, but in this case your objection isn’t strong.
Humans tend to limit the complexity of their systems and declare tech debt bankruptcy long before they're comparable to an ecosystem. You certainly could build something distantly comparable (e.g. the internet as a whole), but it's obvious how difficult studying those sorts of systems is.
Exactly how to understand and intervene in complex systems is an active area of multidisciplinary research, not something trivial or remotely well understood.
I repeat that wisdom about performance optimization more frequently than my coworkers probably like, but it can still be taken too far. If you have two approaches that are equally clear and equally easy, take the one that you expect to be more performant.
In this case, we have two lubricants that are apparently interchangeable. One we know has potential downsides (petroleum based oils are known to be harmful to the ground when spilled; this is part of why we have laws against doing so); one does not. Pick the one that doesn't, since all else is effectively equal.
Even in that situation it is still worth asking what order of magnitude the performance difference will be. If a junior engineer codes up the slower one, should they rewrite it or is it not worth the time?
I just don’t understand why environmentalists sometimes get so indignant when asked about the effect size of the interventions they call for. There’s a million low effort lifestyle chances that would be better for the environment, it is a totally fair question to ask if we want to maximize impact
> You run maybe a pint of bar and chain oil through a big felling saw in an entire day of running it.
Without getting into whether it's actually a significant pollutant compared to other sources, I think your estimate is considerably low. I'm usually worn out before I can cut for a whole day, but I've gone through more than 2 quarts in a day. And here's someone professional who says he goes through a gallon a day of bar and chain oil with a similarly sized saw (possibly because he's able to keep going longer): https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=46008.msg662...
It’s true that literally everything on Earth is natural by definition, either naturally-occurring or produced by natural forces like erosion or beavers or humans. But that’s tautological, and not interesting.
Refined petroleum does not occur naturally and is toxic to all life. Vegetable oils are produced by stepping on or chewing nuts or vegetables. There is no comparison.
I recently topped off a chainsaw with motor oil and noticed that it flung everywhere. Chainsaw oil has some additives in it that allow the oil to be picked up by the chain at high speed but not flung off the chain. I wonder how this question would be addressed using vegetable oil.
Could you engineer a chainsaw that doesn't need lubrication? Maybe a dynamic tensioner that pulls the chain taught instead of riding on a frame? Or what about rethinking the design entirely and using a long screw with cutting teeth all along it (no metal on metal moving parts)?
Edit: or an oscillating multi-tool, though the manual for the one I have says it’s only for short jobs to reduce risk of overheating. Also, be careful of repetitive stress injury. There are some models that reduce vibration on the user end.
Bonus: when catastrophic hydraulic leaks inevitably occurred and sprayed hot hydraulic fluid over the hot exhaust, you would be rewarded with the lovely smell of a deep fryer!