Right. There is a lot to be said about how the apps don't really reflect the reality. What you're talking about creates a feedback loop where women get more selective as men get more desperate.
But the issue of hookups is odd. I don't know if most people find hookups objectionable. I know a lot of people probably want some kind of connection. I see that constantly in women's profiles. So how do we end up with hookups anyway in spite of no one wanting it? I mentioned elsewhere in this thread that in my experience, being upfront to women about wanting a serious relationship seems to scare them off. Why would that be?
One possibility is that women choose hookups in some cases or as a bargaining tool to get a relationship. My own thought is dating apps should probably discourage this instead of selling false hope to men. They could just limit the number of matches or maybe try to set it up so people go for relationships instead of a hookup.
>too many choice problem
This is a different issue I think but it is true. I think what happens is people assume they can do better always and that might not even be true. I could see how people would miss a good match hoping for a perfect one, then age, then face worse options and end up single and alone. I think this is a serious problem we're facing that we should confront.
Another issue I have experienced is that you realize too late that you aren't compatible. It's a lot of effort to get close to people and you end up building up all this attraction in the process. It's by design. Women won't talk to you, period, unless you build attraction. But then you start to learn about each other and realize ok wow this person is completely different and we have very different values.
If you tried this the other way around and put your values in your profile or start asking questions before any attraction is built up on these apps, the women don't respond well to it. It's too boring and dry for them.
ya I think that is true. I doubt people planning this write it that bluntly. I don't know what men who plan this say and write, probably something vaguely sexual and provocative.
I do see women write "not looking for anything serious" somewhat commonly.
OTOH I think it goes nowhere if you write you want a serious stable relationship, maybe wife and children at some point. I am guessing but I think it scares some women off and it doesn't really build attraction with them. I have seen women write this in their profiles and when you mention you want something similar the conversation fizzles out real quick. I don't think there is any hard rule here though. A lot of factors can affect this.
> feedback loop where women get more selective as men get more desperate.
> So how do we end up with hookups anyway in spite of no one wanting it?
I think this may be one aspect of the answer. If you're dying of thirst then you'll drink dirty water. But after you've hydrated yourself you think more about how dirty the water is. So you go on searching for clean water. Find yourself dehydrated again, and repeat. I don't think this is a male or female problem, but that we are sexual beings by nature. Even women have post-nut clarity. I'd say that there is even a post validation clarity too. I know when men go through sprints where they get no matches they just start matching with everyone to just get some sort of validation.[0]
But I think there are other issues too. This is definitely a complicated situation and I think the problems with the apps is that they are over simplifying the criteria that people match on. And let's be real here, there's not much incentive pressures to get these apps to actually match people. Dating businesses are weird because the end goal is to get rid of your user. If you're trying to maximize profits you aren't trying to maximize compatibility.
> Another issue I have experienced is that you realize too late that you aren't compatible. It's a lot of effort to get close to people and you end up building up all this attraction in the process. It's by design. Women won't talk to you, period, unless you build attraction. But then you start to learn about each other and realize ok wow this person is completely different and we have very different values.
Something from my perspective, that I don't think is by any means unique to me, is that I notice that someone becomes more physically attractive the more I mentally jive with them. I think this is what gimmicky shows that hide the potential matches exploit. But I'm not sure that's useful either. This really isn't a solution I can really see technology fixing. Physical attraction is definitely the bait in relationship forming but it isn't what reels people in (unless hookup or vanity seeking, which is a valid approach, just not mine). I'm sure I've missed potential matches that would have become exceedingly beautiful to me because the selection criteria is highly dependent on photos. But I don't think things are any better on OkCupid (tried years ago) where you can write a lot about yourself. There too are different selective pressures here because of match rates and this plays a big role in strategies. But I don't think we talk enough about our differing experiences.
[0] To further elaborate on this I've even noticed that when I delete and reinstall the app that the variance of the number of matches I get is extremely high. One reset can get me multiple matches a week for over a month. Another reset can get me zero matches for an entire month. There's a lot of variables at play here, but this is mentally taxing playing with this black box, and that's more what I'm trying to get with all this. Because maybe if we understand what is mentally taxing to each of us we can build better connections (empathy definitely plays an important role in match making)
interesting that you are hacking the apps. I didn't realize you could use the same # over and over. They've done everything they can to not allow VOIP so I had to use my actual #. The extent of this I have done was previously running the app in a VM and being able to change location without having to pay but they made it too difficult and I just decided to pay because it's not that much.
definitely the business model is messed up though.
In retrospect I probably saw warning signs that I wasn't compatible with someone but ignored it because I just wanted a match. Maybe that is part of what was happening when I said I found out too late someone wasn't compatible. It's quite possible I was forcing something to happen. I have to think about that, it was months ago now.
You might be on to something describing the need for validation and desperation that happens. It's definitely making decisions with clouded judgement. A part of me thinks that people shouldn't make the matches themselves, they should be assigned after being checked for compatibility and attraction before any chatting happens. not sure there is a perfect way to do this though.
Oh there are other ways I've found to hack the algorithm. It is really black box probing. I don't think it too difficult if you're into ML interpretation or a hacker, but I firmly believe that this should not be a necessary condition to get matches. That is where the root of the issue lies. If you have to hack the algorithm to make matches, the algorithm has failed. I really do not think Tinder has anywhere near an acceptable algorithm for matching people. I also don't think Bumble is any better.
> In retrospect I probably saw warning signs that I wasn't compatible with someone but ignored it because I just wanted a match.
I think this is unfortunately what that failure causes. Men particularly are lonely (in different ways than women, see thirst analogy above) because social pressures tend to push us to not be as social. So we crave attention and will stay in bad relationships because the fear of loneliness is greater. As someone who has done this recently, I think it is often hard for us to talk about these things openly (social norms).
Both men and women are seeking validation and are desperate, but just in different ways. I really think an issue is that we're not listening to one another and assuming our realities are very similar. Empathy is one of the real things that make humans unique, but I think these apps remove that component and that's why I dislike them.
But the issue of hookups is odd. I don't know if most people find hookups objectionable. I know a lot of people probably want some kind of connection. I see that constantly in women's profiles. So how do we end up with hookups anyway in spite of no one wanting it? I mentioned elsewhere in this thread that in my experience, being upfront to women about wanting a serious relationship seems to scare them off. Why would that be?
One possibility is that women choose hookups in some cases or as a bargaining tool to get a relationship. My own thought is dating apps should probably discourage this instead of selling false hope to men. They could just limit the number of matches or maybe try to set it up so people go for relationships instead of a hookup.
>too many choice problem
This is a different issue I think but it is true. I think what happens is people assume they can do better always and that might not even be true. I could see how people would miss a good match hoping for a perfect one, then age, then face worse options and end up single and alone. I think this is a serious problem we're facing that we should confront.
Another issue I have experienced is that you realize too late that you aren't compatible. It's a lot of effort to get close to people and you end up building up all this attraction in the process. It's by design. Women won't talk to you, period, unless you build attraction. But then you start to learn about each other and realize ok wow this person is completely different and we have very different values.
If you tried this the other way around and put your values in your profile or start asking questions before any attraction is built up on these apps, the women don't respond well to it. It's too boring and dry for them.