When we say "grey area" the test is "could this image be absolutely non-controversial in a "normal" context". For example; if you seize a computer containing lots of images of girls in swimwear the owner has some issues. But if one of those images appeared, in, say a family photo album no one would bat an eye lid.
In that case I absolutely do prefer to frame the situations differently. On the one hand we have a someone who's tastes directly drive gangs to abuse more children. On the other hand we have someone who is contributing to the violation of childrens privacy (through sites that distribute these images).
At no point am I suggesting these crimes should be treated differently, just that we should consider the differences.
Both are forms of victimisation; however in the latter case the victimisation takes place after the photo is taken (when it finds its way on line) rather than at the time (when the child is being abused).
The problem here is not how I describe these. It is with a society that sees the word "Child Porn" and goes off half cock, but sees "Invasion of privacy" and "Emotional Trauma" and shrugs.
Just to be clear; I work within the field of forensics, which means that, yes, I do investigate such cases - and I am exposed to the legal structure and opinion related to these crimes. If you read over my comments carefully at no point do I try to dismiss the severity of the issue - I just gave some very brief feedback from my experience.
What I was noting, legally speaking, is that many images are in a grey area where they are not explicitly abusing a child (although they are abusive in being traded around online). If all you have in your possession are such images you will not likely see the inside of the court room.
Speaking personally I don't entirely agree with this state of affairs (perhaps I should have made that clear in the first posts :)).
EDIT: I should explain that this state of affairs has come to evolve because of how juries tend to react to CP prosecutions. If the case involves images of children being abused sexually then the defendant is seen as reprehensible/evil. On the other hand, if all you have is a collection of - individually innocuous - pictures of kids the defendant tends to be seen as having more of a mental issue, and elicits sympathy - "he didn't actually hurt anyone". The jury, obviously, fails to see the secondary abuse in distributing the image.
I don't think you can prosecute someone for being attracted to children, that would be thought crime and is a slippery slope. But clearly, participating in sites that distribute those images are is reprehensible abuse of another sort - and that is what they need to be punished for.
Thanks for the inside view on things. It sounds we're definitely speaking from the same position, and I'm glad that we agree on the meat of the argument.
I'm going to grab my soapbox and expand where I'm coming from regarding the normalization of child pornography. By allowing a de facto distinction to exist between hardcore abusive pornography and other forms, we are essentially saying that some types of child pornography are okay. This primes individuals to regard possession as acceptable; this is why reddit's inaction until now was so reprehensible.
I understand that the legal system is unlikely to investigate cases of child pornography that don't consist of egregious child abuse. That's fair. The legal system has a limited amount of time & money. But the moment we allow people to mistake this inaction for tolerance is the moment everything starts to go wrong.
But again - it looks like we're on the same page, and I definitely appreciate the inside view you bring.
In that case I absolutely do prefer to frame the situations differently. On the one hand we have a someone who's tastes directly drive gangs to abuse more children. On the other hand we have someone who is contributing to the violation of childrens privacy (through sites that distribute these images).
At no point am I suggesting these crimes should be treated differently, just that we should consider the differences.
Both are forms of victimisation; however in the latter case the victimisation takes place after the photo is taken (when it finds its way on line) rather than at the time (when the child is being abused).
The problem here is not how I describe these. It is with a society that sees the word "Child Porn" and goes off half cock, but sees "Invasion of privacy" and "Emotional Trauma" and shrugs.
Just to be clear; I work within the field of forensics, which means that, yes, I do investigate such cases - and I am exposed to the legal structure and opinion related to these crimes. If you read over my comments carefully at no point do I try to dismiss the severity of the issue - I just gave some very brief feedback from my experience.
What I was noting, legally speaking, is that many images are in a grey area where they are not explicitly abusing a child (although they are abusive in being traded around online). If all you have in your possession are such images you will not likely see the inside of the court room.
Speaking personally I don't entirely agree with this state of affairs (perhaps I should have made that clear in the first posts :)).
EDIT: I should explain that this state of affairs has come to evolve because of how juries tend to react to CP prosecutions. If the case involves images of children being abused sexually then the defendant is seen as reprehensible/evil. On the other hand, if all you have is a collection of - individually innocuous - pictures of kids the defendant tends to be seen as having more of a mental issue, and elicits sympathy - "he didn't actually hurt anyone". The jury, obviously, fails to see the secondary abuse in distributing the image.
I don't think you can prosecute someone for being attracted to children, that would be thought crime and is a slippery slope. But clearly, participating in sites that distribute those images are is reprehensible abuse of another sort - and that is what they need to be punished for.