I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions.
There is a big difference underneath the surface, though on the surface, many such incidents look like just "joking around." The difference has to do with social distance. If you feel an off-color remark is appropriate for someone you barely know, then I hate to tell you, but you're on one end of an asymmetric power relationship, and the other party has the short end of it.
It used to be, back in the 50's, men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met. That sort of thing is a clear indication of the uneven power relationship. To really understand, you need to be on the "short" end, and more, you need to understand what it's like growing up with that constantly in the environment.
Yes, often one doesn't have bad intentions. But I'm explaining it to you now. Just be honest with yourself about social distance and "kidding." If you're really self aware, you may start to realize there's been a difference in social distance between off-color remarks to women vs. others. (African Americans, perhaps?)
Sorry but I don't see how your example of a guy initiating a dialogue with women he just met is an example of a power imbalance. Partly because you're guessing at how he feels - maybe he feels entitled or maybe he feels nervous at hell, because he knows there's a chance of rejection/getting rebuffed/etc.
Of course, maybe I'm biased since I met my wife by simply going up and talking to her while she was waiting in line to purchase a ticket for a boat ride :-)
Sorry but I don't see how your example of a guy initiating a dialogue with women he just met is an example of a power imbalance.
Sorry, but I must be expressing myself incorrectly. My understanding is that guys used to be entitled to just go up and sit with unaccompanied females in public. If there was asking, it was pretty perfunctory. (This is from a woman's commentary from a documentary about the 60's, about how consciousness changed from the 50's.) In some countries, it was customary for a guy to ask the already present male for permission, leaving the female out of the decision. (This is from my own knowledge of Irish traditional culture.)
Of course, maybe I'm biased since I met my wife by simply going up and talking to her while she was waiting in line to purchase a ticket for a boat ride
The question is, how much right of refusal did she have? How much presumption was involved on your part? I'm going to guess that she had a lot of latitude on the first part and there was little presumption. I'm going to hazard a guess that you would've been embarrassed, but taken her polite refusal, had things gone differently, but not been offended or felt the loss of something you were entitled to.
The tricky thing in all this, is that it looks fairly harmless on the surface, but it's still pretty corrosive in aggregate. Please don't fall into the trap of being offended because what you've done has a surface resemblance to subtle racism or sexism. No one is saying that you were being sexist because you met your wife in a line. When one gets rid of the overt forms of [X] one is generally left with [X] that resembles something else. (But if you are observant of the power relationships beneath the surface, there is a clear difference.)
> But I'm explaining it to you now. Just be honest with yourself about social distance and "kidding."
I really wonder at the need to mischaracterize what I said above. Nowhere did I mention picking on anyone or engaging in humor at the expense of my coworkers.
Maybe you didn't realize you were battling a straw man. But I'm explaining it to you now. You're bringing a lot of your own preconceptions and baggage to the sub-thread off my post here that didn't say what you imply it said. It's right up there, go re-read it.
There is a big difference underneath the surface, though on the surface, many such incidents look like just "joking around." The difference has to do with social distance. If you feel an off-color remark is appropriate for someone you barely know, then I hate to tell you, but you're on one end of an asymmetric power relationship, and the other party has the short end of it.
It used to be, back in the 50's, men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met. That sort of thing is a clear indication of the uneven power relationship. To really understand, you need to be on the "short" end, and more, you need to understand what it's like growing up with that constantly in the environment.
Yes, often one doesn't have bad intentions. But I'm explaining it to you now. Just be honest with yourself about social distance and "kidding." If you're really self aware, you may start to realize there's been a difference in social distance between off-color remarks to women vs. others. (African Americans, perhaps?)