>> "And then not only are EVs more expensive, but their own salespeople are untrained. They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. A lot of them have 100–200 percent turnover of their sales staff in a given year," Reigersman told me.
IOW, the dealerships only want to sell what is easy. They do not want to invest in their people to learn how to sell the cars. They all grumble a bit when the manufacturers require $$Millions in capital investment to sell & service their cars, but are now balking at expense of training their people.
It is far past time to kill requirements that cars cannot be sold direct. If the dealership cannot or will not sell the EVs, then the companies should be able to route around dealers.
I'd bet we'll suddenly find that their salespeople are all trained up and selling EVs like hotcakes after that.
>>Do people actually believe anything a car salesman says anyway?
Used car? Very little
New car? I've found a few good ones, and much of what they need to say is verifiable (e.g., in the specs in a brochure / official website).
I think the point was that customers can't even get basic info out of these people, and they aren't even offering their usual level of encouragement to buy. I.e., the car sales people (and the managers failing to provide training) are not doing their jobs. If they don't want to do their jobs, then the companies should be able to route around them.
Dealerships (maintenance and new sales), Oil/Exhaust/Brake, and Gas stations will decimated -- as car owners no longer have a system that neglect (oil, coolant, high temp exhaust, high temp seals and sensors) causes an end of life event.
At most, battery packs will be neglected when cars sit, but vehicles today with a the sensors and systems that run lithium ion batteries safely will reduce many of the impacts of neglect.
But mostly new sales, even used market sales; the interior will be the primary part of a vehicle that ages (ignoring the effect of salt on roads)
EVs still use oil and coolant though just that the oil never needs changing. And EVs still have issues needing you to go to the service. My mate had to take his ID.3 to the service 3 times due to SW issues. EVs aren't immune from issues.
Software (plugging in a cable and a computer) and other 100k+ mile (suspension) if not lifetime (battery coolant or oil, airbag recall) seem seldom and low rate activities not enough to keep a dealership service department running.
Tesla is often solving these with mobile mechanics and regional service centers.
People only focus on the ICE engine itself as being the need to go to the service, but there's other shit that can go wrong in a car, no matter if it's ICE or EV, like window lifters, locks, tailgate, bumper changes, door changes, mirrors, suspension, heated $WHATEVER, one of the dozens of ECUs or sensors getting faulty, plus anything damaged from the usual fender bender or curb mounting. You'll still need to go to a service for those.
And ICE cars will not magically disappear overnight off the roads though. Service centers still have at least 20+ years of work for them of ICE + EV combined. It should be enough to plan your business accordingly like selling it or pivoting to something else if you think the EV future is too low margin for that business.
The wear items you mentioned are going to be rare occurrences, ie once every 50/100k miles.
Versus oil changes get customers in the shop every 5-10k miles / 1 year; Coolant changes every 2-5 years. The best analog is tire changes on Evs.
Yes, collision shops will still be needed, but are rarely a direct dealer service (the majority of dealers do not have paint shops).
The top mechanical issues; Engines (from oil change negligence), and transmissions will no longer exist in the drivetrain. (Sensor failure will be relatively minimal as no sensors are exposed to constant 200 degree heat or oil or gasoline).
From a duration perspective; dealers may support 100k mile, 10 year warranties, but when we see 50% EV adoption, it will be like finding obsolete ford parts from the 50s in no time for 10+ year old vehicles.
They might be telling that to the administration, but the problem is apparently not so severe as to get them to drop their prices. I'll believe them when I see deep dealer discounts on EVs.
There is exactly _one_ of those Lightning Pro models at $51,990 within 100 miles of me in Ford's dealer network.
The XLTs are a bit better with about a half-dozen or so at the $55,990, also within 100 miles.
Most of the Lightning inventory is loaded and far above those base model prices. We're not even talking $60k, we're talking $75-90k...For an F-150 and today's interest rates...
Problem, currently I can’t get solar (townhome, old roof, HOA). And without solar, with PG&E prices which keep going up, I’m not really sure EVs make a lot of sense given their cost and the fact I’ll have to spend $5-$10K (not exactly sure) to install the 240V charger.
One of our cars is a plug in hybrid, so with 110V overnight charging for many trips and gas range for longer trips we get the best of both.
Our next car might also be a plug-in or a hybrid. EV, I just don’t see a good option ( sorry, FWIW, not going to consider a Tesla due to Musk)
Yes, I feel, may not be correct, that plug-in hybrids are a little underrated. Most have very short ranges, I wish the range could be longer. Rav-4 has the best range that I know of, but they are hard to find and with the newer tax credits hard to justify, as they are not built in the US they don’t qualify for tax credits.
OTOH, I hate oil changes, so that is my personal reason to go full EV since technically they require less routine maintenance as they are simpler.
It's true, car dealers "can't sell" EVs. Not because people don't want EVs, but because dealers either don't want to sell them, or don't know how to sell them.
I've owned 3 EVs since 2016 and I've been to franchise dealerships each time. I've been to dealerships both with and without dedicated or specially trained EV sales reps.
Sales reps who've not had any specific training on selling EVs, working in dealerships with no dedicated EV showroom space are _terrible_ at selling EVs IME. At best they're disinterested in making a sale, at worst they actively discourage you with all the common EV related FUD.
Showrooms with dedicated space to showcase EV product offerings, information about EVs and which have marketing material actively incentivising the benefits of an EV, also have sales reps who are knowledgeable, helpful, and actively seeking to close a sale.
If you think inserting a plug into a socket is "cumbersome" perhaps. Plus you can do it at home, while you sleep. If you're on a long trip the range is long enough now that is a good reason to stretch your legs and hydrate.
When you can't charge over night, then standing for an hour on a charger is absurdly inconvenient. Like returning from touchscreen phone to rotary phone and screaming progress.
It already doesn't take one hour to charge most new cars - rather half, unless you insist on charging also for the last 15-20% which is slower to protect the battery. And this is a baseline from which we're steadily improving year after year. DC Fast charging was 50kW, then 150, now 350kW chargers are being deployed (admittedly not many current, and very few older cars can take advantage of the full speed) and will keep getting even faster over time.
An 80% charge at 350kW would take under 10.5 minutes even for a semi-large 75kW/h battery*, you'd barely have the time to hit the bathroom and order a fast food meal to consume in the car - and this will gradually become the new baseline, from which you can expect further improvements down the line.
* it would actually take more if you showed up with a completely empty battery - the first 10ish % needs to be slower, to protect the battery - but in reality you would NOT plan to reach a charger with such little range remaining, so it would actually take you quite a bit less. A 15% to 80% charge on a 75kW/h battery at 350kW would take 8m21s.
That's all nice theory, but from my experience as BEV owner:
* 350kW chargers are rare, cars able to take the charge even more. (I have Enyaq, charge is capped around 150kW, never saw it charging faster). The most common charger in the wild is around 50kW
* 100kW+ chargers are insanely expensive. It is cheaper to drive ICE than charge on those.
* Chargers are often broken
* You are assuming that there is nobody in front of you. Good luck getting your 8 minutes with 2 other cars waiting to charge as well.
* 8 minutes is still slower than getting a gas to an ICE
Enel X - Charging points in Italy: 0,69€/kWh for AC charging points, 0,89€/kWh for DC charging points up to 150 kW and 0,99€/kWh for DC charging points over 150 kW (HPC)
• Charging points outside Italy: 0,70€/kWh for AC charging points, 0,95€/kWh for DC charging points up to 150kW and 0,99€/kWh for DC charging points above 150kW
Those are just two charging network known for high power chargers on European highways, which I can get top out of my head.
It’s not for everyone. If you can charge at home with average electric rates and you’re not regularly traveling more than 5 hours at a time then it’s probably a good option. If you travel more frequently, get a Tesla. If it’s still not for you, then it’s not for you. If you’re just angry and mad other people like them, I’ve got no recommendations.
To be fair, if you have only driven a Tesla, you potentially have no idea how bad, and yes, cumbersome, charging can be. My ex has 8 apps on her phone, to allow charging in some (not even all) of the many separate networks accessible in Germany. Some apps are atrocious, some demand network connectivity in an underground garage, some return unexplainable errors which even the provider can't help you with, and which persist even after a phone wipe. Happened with Lidl, the solution was to switch the iPhone's language from British English to US English. Probably their website barfed on the Accept-Language: en-gb header.
Fortunately legislation is coming to force all of them to take credit/debit cards, and standards like Autocharge will also help.
> Plus you can do it at home, while you sleep. If you're on a long trip the range is long enough now that is a good reason to stretch your legs and hydrate.
Oh it's so easy and convenient!
You are being short sighted, yeah in ideal conditions, it's OK. But what about.
You're pulling into your home just about on empty, plug it in walk inside, then a get a phone call from your dad who lives 2 hours away "Mom just had a terrible accident, and is in the hospital, were not sure she can make it, get to the hospital as soon as your can!" Now your dumb ass has to sit and panic and stress while you wait for your stupid EV to charge. On top of that now your playing this guessing game, "What is the least amount of charge I need to get to the hospital, what if I underestimate just a bit and run out of charge 10 miles out, then I would be even later than if just let it charged a bit more".
What if you car is low on charge, you go plug in it, then a storm comes ripping through, electricity is out, it's out for days, your fucking stuck, sorry.
I think people are vastly under estimating the "I HAVE TO LEAVE RIGHT THE FUCK NOW" value you have with a combustion engine.
Emergencies happen, electricity goes out, I would happily pay more for a vehicle that didn't have these terrible drawbacks.
What is “calling a car”? Like taxi? By the time it’s gets there you might as well just waited for your car to charge.
And yeah, God forbid you move from something with more flexibility and freedom (a combustion engine), to something with less (an EV).
I don’t wish anyone ever go from more to less freedom and flexibility.
The “derp it’s only 20 min to charge” is a bad argument. You are asking me to go from 2 min or less to 20+ min. That’s a 900% increase and is totally unacceptable.
You’re right. You should have a helicopter fueled up and ready to go. Seeing your mom quicker in case this scenario presents itself is the driving motivation for your vehicle type. /s
This is a perfect example of the mental gymnastics people will go through to convince themselves that EVs are not viable.
My EV is on average “fuller” than my diesel was since my commute uses 10% per day and it gets recharged every night, whereas my diesel would wait until 1/6th full at least until a fill up.
That not every customer wants an EV or that an EV is not the best car for every customer is no excuse for sales reps being subpar when it comes to EVs. Especially when the car industry does not take sales rep performance into account when evaluating EV sales at dealerships.
I don't see how you agree with the poster when it seems like for you, an EV is quite viable.
The reality is that each has different constraints. Sitting around waiting for a charge on road trips seems annoying. Never having to "get gas" for local trips seems awesome.
That's the wrong way to look at it. Regardless of how much you're driving, most folks in dense urban non-Californian areas are getting at best a Level 2 charge.
Who has the time to sit around or park their car for an hour for every 20 miles they drive?
If you take NYC for example, EV parking spaces are big bucks and for the few available public infrastructure places, most of the spots are being occupied full time by city parks department vehicles that rarely if ever leave the charger.
As far as taking your question literally, you should talk to people in the midwest more -- I know lots of folks in the Dakotas and Wyoming with crazy schedules and 4hr commutes because that's literally the closest work.
I don't want an EV. Well, I'm not opposed to an EV, but I am opposed to a car that phones to someone's server somewhere. That excludes (AFAICT) all EVs and non-EV cars of recent vintage.
Personally I think the availability of rental EVs has done a lot to dampen excitement about _owning_ an EV. It certainly did for me. Driving one is a lot of fun but using it outside about 100 miles of where you park it each night is fraught.
Insurance rates are much higher because of the extremely high repair costs for even minor collisions. Consequently EVs are 'totaled' much more easily than equivalent hybrid or gas vehicles. Eastern Europe is doing a booming business in refurbished EVs shipped over from the US.
Then there are the issues of battery production and disposal which can do a lot to mitigate the environmental benefits of an EV.
These details, aside from charging, weren't readily apparent at first. But they are real and they are expensive.
> Today, the supply of unsold BEVs is surging, as they are not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships—even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives, and generous government incentives.
have they tried improving the quality of the cars?
Hybrid vehicles have much lower inventory levels, supporting Toyota's argument that consumers want a stepping stone to fully electric cars. There's a relatively tight 44-day supply of hybrids industrywide, according to Cox.
Toyotas are in particularly short supply — under 30 days each for Prius and RAV4 hybrids and plug-in hybrids.
Tesla packaged their early vehicles with unlimited super charging for life - and a nation wide network -- with test road trips publicized; and if you buy a GM/Ford today you have to pull up to a heavily Tesla branded station, pay a premium, use an adapter --- or pull up to chargers that are often slow and unmaintained, with waiting lines, and require a different app at every different station.
Imagine if GM -- perhaps with partnership with another manufacturer invested a portion of today's $10b buyback in a national charging network; possibly doubling the ability for Americans to charge with high quality, branded and integrated (like Tesla).
So a business based on shafting customers constantly is now decrying that they can't shaft people fast enough, because people are tired of spending entirely too much money on a vehicle.
Don't even get me started on how awful dealerships are. I test drove an Ioniq 5, and the vehicle itself was pretty decent. But then when I ask what the out-the-door price is and they all went on the "let's go inside", sit me down, ask for every piece of personal information, then make me wait even longer and tell me they need to go to talk to a manager to get a f'ing price. Tesla is much better than that, but their competition in the U.S. is total shit so I don't think they're even trying to compete as hard here as in, e.g., China.
Where I am, at least part of the reason for that is that the sales tax varies by county - not county of the dealer, but county of the buyer, which I think is kind of crazy. (Yes, it makes it so that the dealers don't all cluster just over the line in the county with the lowest sales tax. Still...)
So if you want the actual price (and thereby to avoid the "we told you $X, but it's actually $X+Y" mess that makes dealers look like slimy crooks), then they need enough information to tell you the actual price. You want an estimate? They might give you one, with some amount of uncertainty. You want an accurate number? You have to give them every single bit of information that affects the price.
I honestly don't trust car dealers. Most of them are scammers trying to bait and switch, inflate prices, sell worthless warranties/upgrades, and generally screw everyone to the best of their abilities. People order cars and have to buy through them, so the dealer takes the car and sells it to someone else for more. Then, when you actually get the car, if it breaks down they will charge you for in-warranty repairs.
They were the worst with EVs and Hybrids. In the meantime, with work from home, a lot of people are realizing they don't need a car. Everyone else's car payment is going to doubled grocery prices and doubled rents. Also, good luck buying anything affordable, because the lots are filled with F-150s and SUVs.
Good luck finding a sedan for less than $30k, manufacturers are only making expensive cars if they make any. They seem to think the market wants those FX50's or SUVs, but that's because they can charge a lot more for them. Well, they can charge that, but as we see, the vehicles just sit in lots at this point.
Another thing that gets me is the insurance. The videos of Teslas spying on drivers and reporting hard acceleration while raising people's rates. The $500/month insurance costs for every other insurance provider. All because the car has to be a way-too-fast status symbol. Meanwhile people just want to get to work/school/home without crashing into a tree or spending their kid's college savings account on insurance.
It’s the normal taddle tail addon plugs into your obd2 port other insurances have to reduce your rates if you drive 4am-10pm, less than 85, and don’t hard brake or rates go up.
>Good luck finding a sedan for less than $30k, manufacturers are only making expensive cars if they make any.
There's still affordable car makers in the west. Meet the Dacia Duster 2024 Hybrid SUV, starting at 20K, up to 30K fully loaded (Europe only). Probably gonna sell like hotcakes.
I've been in need of a truck for the past several years. And due to life circumstances, I would likely have just paid the new vehicle premium. But based on everything I've been hearing about prices, availability, and dealer games, I haven't even been looking. When the rampant price inflation has subsided and salespeople are back to choosing whether to splurge on the premium can of dogfood, then perhaps I'll think about it. Of course by the time this happens I'll have more bandwidth for maintenance, and with the unsafe touchscreens and antagonistic surveillance systems they're cramming into new vehicles, I'll probably just end up with an older model.
>> "And then not only are EVs more expensive, but their own salespeople are untrained. They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. A lot of them have 100–200 percent turnover of their sales staff in a given year," Reigersman told me.
IOW, the dealerships only want to sell what is easy. They do not want to invest in their people to learn how to sell the cars. They all grumble a bit when the manufacturers require $$Millions in capital investment to sell & service their cars, but are now balking at expense of training their people.
It is far past time to kill requirements that cars cannot be sold direct. If the dealership cannot or will not sell the EVs, then the companies should be able to route around dealers.
I'd bet we'll suddenly find that their salespeople are all trained up and selling EVs like hotcakes after that.