Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship.
As I have gotten older, a pattern that is working much better for me is the campfire model - I just try to keep a metaphorical campfire going, for people traveling through this life to stop and warm themselves upon while I tend it. I cannot know which direction people are traveling from, or to, or how long their journey has been or will be. But all people need to warm their calloused hands and feet, and I can keep this fire with a bed of rosy coals.
Sometimes someone will stop at my fire and warm themselves without my ever having paid attention, but to them it may have meant all the difference in the world. By keeping this obligation in mind, to simply expect people to need a place to sit a spell, I can at least believe I am helping.
The campfire is a nice way for me to remember we're all suffering, that not a one of us is unique to loneliness. Because sometimes that person who sits down at your fire is the person you have been waiting for, and only by making a seat for them were you able to ever meet.
The skeptic in me is very wary of romanticizing the campfire model. For me it has generated a lot of short term happiness but very few lasting, deeply committed relationships. And if you look at human history, this model is the exception, not the norm; virtually all civilizations across time have relied primarily on enduring family networks for support. In the past couple hundred years workplace and university networks have become sources of enduring relationships as well. We have good reasons to believe that these relationships are important to health, longevity and happiness.
I would not hesitate to start a campfire and see what it yields but I also wouldn't expect it to yield what truly matters.
The modern (western) world provides very little bedrock for people to build a psychological foundation. We argue with our families, our employers can dump us at any time, we divorce our spouses, friends are always moving on or marrying off. Contrast that to the model of multi-generational family based ties which has endured throughout history and I have to wonder, is our society even going to last in its current form?
> Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship.
This fixation on the spouse is kind of a modern oddity as well. In many societies past and present, your spouse, your parents, your kids, and maybe even your grandparents and grandkids are all of roughly equal importance.
> "This fixation on the spouse is kind of a modern oddity as well. In many societies past and present, your spouse, your parents, your kids, and maybe even your grandparents and grandkids are all of roughly equal importance."
Rather than "everyone is roughly equal" it's probably more accurate to say that the degree of power, dependence and investment between family members varies dramatically from culture to culture. The nuclear model is certainly widespread in modern times, but multi-generational models are still very common, especially in Asia.
The post-familial model, where Thanksgiving becomes Friendsgiving because you don't have any blood relatives you know and like, is surely the newest and rarest. I think having friends who are more important than extended family, let alone immediate family, is a pretty modern phenomenon.
Could you elaborate more concretely about this campfire model?
edit: Asking because I'm having a hard time visualizing the metaphor applied to reality. Do you find/make friends ("campers"?) differently? Would they consider you a friend, or are these relationships more broad with less depth? How does maintaining the fire relate to maintaining friendships? Are you just a support person handing out favors with little expectation of reciprocity? If so does that feel fulfilling compared to deeply investing in a smaller number of people?
I had a good friend who just had open "hang out" time every day after work in his garage. There was a group of about 30 friends who might stop by any time between 5 and 8 PM, have a beer, hang out and BS. Sometimes it was just Paul and 1 or 2 others, sometimes 15 people showed up, sometimes Paul wasn't even there, but the garage was always open (if you had the code). I used to go almost every day between work and home, it's how i made about half the friends I have now. It was also where weekend plans got made and many a hunting/fishing/camping trip got planned there.
That's over now and I really miss it. Buddy had some health problems and ended up with an overwhelming opiate addiction and just stopped hanging out with anyone. Some of the friends still get together for a weekend poker game but it's not the same. It was so cool to have a place you could go hang out after work where you knew everyone was fun to be around and they liked having you around. You never know who would be there or what the conversation would be but it was always a good time.
I've tried to get the same thing going myself, but have never been successful. I'm not sure how you get that started. Once it's going, it's self-sustaining, but you have to reach a critical mass of participants and has to occur really regularly, even daily. I think maybe it takes a very specific kind of person to be the host.
Anyway, that's what the OP's campfire analogy made me think of. I really miss it...
I feel like I have this setup. For the last 3 years, I’ve been going to a cafe in downtown SF. Over the course of this time, I’ve met people who’ve become best friends, roommates, ppl to do side projects with and much more. Friends know if they want to talk to me they can very reliably just walk in and find me there 8/10 times.
The cool thing about this set up is that you make new friends on a rolling basis which is key because friends you hang with will occasionally move elsewhere or change lifestyles. Over the course of the 3 years, I think the following implicit principles have worked really well:
- We have no expectations of finding each other.
- We don’t make plans.
- On the rare occasion that we make plans, it is very informal. You’re free to flake / be late without being nagged or feeling like you’ve someone waiting on you (they aren’t.)
- Very concrete plans are reserved for events (sad and happy) like a breakup or career chat — in those cases, I’ll make sure to be there at the time I expect the friend.
The happiest guy I know has this exact setup at his place. It’s a group of about 15 people of which at least 5-6 show up daily to have a beer, plays cards, and generally pass the evening hours.
Coming from a fast paced corporate world, it’s a uniquely beautiful experience.
> I've tried to get the same thing going myself, but have never been successful. I'm not sure how you get that started. Once it's going, it's self-sustaining, but you have to reach a critical mass of participants and has to occur really regularly, even daily. I think maybe it takes a very specific kind of person to be the host.
You don't need to be the host. Indeed, the host can be some organization. A place of worship, if that appeals. Or a Unitarian "Church", if you're not religious. Or a hackerspace. Or really, any sort of interest group. Even the neighborhood bar, if it's a good one.
And maybe, once you get to know enough people, you can host parties, and people will show up.
It's true. I'm a chuch-goer and have a couple of board gaming groups going from people I met at church. I've met all kinds of people at church that I probably wouldn't have met otherwise. There are computer chip designers, software engineers, accountants, doctors, police officers, a navy seal, a lumber mill operator, professors, scientists, veterans living at the local salvation army center, psychologists, business people, economists, etc.
Trivia works. I go to two trivias (M/W) almost every week. I have a group of about 6 people that show up (random which subset) to each (not the same people) to play on my team, sometimes more (used to be a lot more but some people moved). And the other teams are people I knew before going there or have come to know since starting. Pleasant way to spend a couple hours a couple times a week. A bit of hanging out, a bit of competitive fun, and more hanging out.
I'm pretty welcoming and gregarious, I have had random people join my team before when they asked (my teammates were less comfortable at first, but relaxed and welcomed them later). This will definitely depend on the crowd. It may be easier to start your own team (or playing solo at the bar) and just start getting to know the other teams for a while first before asking to join them.
It also depends on the location. One is a restaurant, people are generally less welcoming to random folks sitting at their dining table (unfortunately). The other location is a bar. It's much easier to just join a random team. Find 3 people sitting at the bar and ask if you can join them. Or, like the last folks that joined us, find a table with several empty seats and ask to join them.
Join a club for people with common interests. Or find a new interest - I started CrossFit 2 years ago with no prior interest in fitness and to me the social aspect is as important as the fitness aspect, if not moreso.
There was a weekly freestyle dance in New York City that I attended, many years ago. In a studio, with a good wood floor, near Broadway and Houston. It was run by a collective, and part of a northeast association, which had summer dance camps. As I recall, it cost $5 at the door, and less if you subscribed. All ages were welcome, even toddlers. Maybe it still exists. And there are many others, for different dance styles.
Meetup.com has issues. Their recent site redesign pushes people not to be loyal to groups and use it as a "what can it do for me right now" It's killed group identities and there have been a loss of groups. (Orgs have complained very loudly.. but meetup doesn't care)
I've seen this happen in my group and we're looking to see what's next.
Interesting, the list of attributes of a third place sums up the techno scene in my city almost exactly, except I'd say that conversation isn't necessarily the main activity.
The scene is small enough that you always run into the same people every time you're out.
Yes, it sucks. But I suspect that his reticence about hanging out had more to do with the pain than the opioid addiction. In my experience, opioid addicts can be quite social. At least, when they're not nodding out or in withdrawal. I don't like them much as friends, however, because you'll likely never matter more to them than avoiding withdrawal. Same with alcoholics and other addicts.
That's pretty much what every local bar is. Have you never seen Cheers... that's what bars are. That's what being a regular is. The other regulars become your friends.
I have known several people who hosted regular casual Wednesday night dinner parties. They were very low-key and generally based around some activity like going to a farmer's market or watching a movie or playing board games. It was generally understood that anyone who was a regular attendee could invite their own guests. So while the parties started with a small group of friends from work, they grew to be a more diverse set of people over time. People would drift in and out and attendance would be different each week.
Although I moved away and don't really keep in touch, I have fond memories of those get-togethers and still consider the people I met at those parties friends. I really like the analogy of a campfire for something like this. All it takes to start a little community is one person to provide a regular meeting place, something to do, and, crucially, some food.
Exactly. Here in SV, there is the Monday Night Pizza Klatch that is exactly that -- a group of geeks get together to be with like-minded geeks and eat pizza. It's been going for probably a decade or so now; and sometimes various famous and semi-famous SV geeks float in.
I much like u/modeless had a similar experience. I personally really like board games and would host or facilitate weekly board game nights.
To be more specific:
- Do you find/make friends ("campers"?) differently?
No, I just have space and time during the week where people pass through or remain for a season of life (or more). I still make acquaintances doing other activities in my life which grow into friendships at varied depths.
- Would they consider you a friend, or are these relationships more broad with less depth?
I would say all of the above, it depends on what you're defining as a friend. If everyone that isn't a stranger is your friend. Yes, I imagine so. I personally would say that I have made several friends who bring in people who are friends of friends, so an acquaintance to me at least initially. I also have the occasional person whom I invite from another part of my life that I don't feel stranger-danger about being in my home.
- How does maintaining the fire relate to maintaining friendships?
If they're present, then it's a bonding activity. If they're not, it's something that they've bonded over.
- Are you just a support person handing out favors with little expectation of reciprocity?
I'm not the guy that pumps your gas, if that is what you're asking.
This is a very selfless way of living, and for that you have my respect. But the chief cause of loneliness for many people is the fear that the person they were waiting for will never come:
There is a fire which burns inside me, but no-one stays 'round long enough to warm themselves.
Knowing this, if you can truly remain steadfast in your positive outlook on life, then you have achieved true strength. Hard to do in an oversocialized world.
Meditation, mindfulness, and stoicism is my antidote to deriving happiness and self identity from others. This campfire model explains how I've been treating relationships and staving loneliness. Those who don't stay around long enough is expected/anticipated and my baseline value, anything that deviates towards staying around longer gives me energy rather than drains it towards depression/loneliness. Keeping busy with social hobbies helps.
I feel like loneliness is somehow related to the lack of connecting with others on a human level, assuming it isn't caused by lack of certain neurotransmitters where meds will help balance you out.
But the person you're waiting for may never come. Life isn't some romance movie where you're destined to meet "the one".
I've learned to embrace that and have taken solace in living in the moment with the people around me instead of wondering what else could be out there and what I might be missing out on.
Having once experienced true deep friendship, like everything, it sets your standard perhaps irrevocably too high.
I've found the campfire model to produce a lot of mental distress and anguish, since no one is invested in anyone, there's no incentive to grow and as time passes, you start viewing these passing relationships as disposable.
Don't get me wrong, the campfire model is fine as an aspect of general hospitality, but to truly call these passersby your friends would not be correct. They don't contribute to your safety net, nor are you likely in turn to contribute to theirs.
Perhaps I'm not as selfless as you. I just want to be surrounded by people who have "skin in the game", because true friendship and a sense of camaraderie is only built through overcoming difficulties together.
> Because sometimes that person who sits down at your fire is the person you have been waiting for, and only by making a seat for them were you able to ever meet
It's a nice analogy, but a little too romanticized for me.
>> you start viewing these passing relationships as disposable.
I would say that all relationships are temporary. Even in marriage, one party usually dies before the other and that person has then left for good. To realize that relationships are inherently temporary does not mean they are disposable - that word suggests something of low value, like garbage. When you accept that things are temporary perhaps it will help you appreciate the people who stick around, or come indoors from the cold/campfire and stay longer.
It's not easy to accept the world this way. It requires (and fosters) a sense of peace with oneself among other things. That's something worth working toward even if you're not there yet.
Redefining all "temporary" friendships as disposable also defeats the purpose of the word, and is in my eyes much more detrimental to your surroundings than accepting that friendships are (might be) temporary.
This is probably the most beautiful thing I've read on HN.
> Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship.
It's taken me a long time to realise that relationships are not symmetrical, and that they aren't supposed to be.
There are people who I feel very strongly towards (not necessarily romantically) who don't feel the same way back to me, and I'm certain that there are people who feel the same way towards me.
Relationships are also not permanent. People come in to your life, and sometimes fade from your life. This isn't a bad thing either, but just a reality. There are a lot of people who I was good friends with who I'm not really in contact with any more (generally because I moved to a different city/country or they did). We all have our own journey in life which intersects with others. Sometimes we run straight past each other and sometimes we run parallel for a while.
The quality of a relationship isn't measured in time. Some of the most genuine and meaningful interactions I've had have been with people I met only for a few days or even a few hours.
> Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship.
I don't meen this cynically, but isn't this the entire idea behind modern marriage. (Of course marriage adds an expectation of reciprocity, which is what keeps us from viewing it as exploitative; and an expectation of exclusivity, which seems orthogonal)
I like this idea a lot. It goes away from the regular though that you get a friend that is forever that is there for you for good and bad, and puts you into the driver seat. I also liked that it is in general a framework for being a good person.
Where did you learn this? My Google search didn't get that far
An anecdote supporting your first point: I became very close friends with a a guy about my age when I started college. We had lots of awesome adventures, moved in together, and lasted about 7 years together. Eventually I got a job that required me to move away. I started making great money and my life was changing. After only a few years I quit the job and moved back home to be closer to my family and friends, specially this guy.
I seem to have forgotten the nasty, irrational and mean-spirited aspects of his personality. When I returned, I was reminded that our friendship and fun time was also dependant on his reckless and insensitive behavior, of which I've always resented, and tried to shed from my own life over the years.
Now that I'm back home, I'm remembering his full personality, and realizing what a chore it was putting up with sometimes.
Reminded of this bit from Carl Rogers’ “A Way of Being”.
“People are just as wonderful as sunsets if you let them be. When I look at a sunset, I don't find myself saying, "Soften the orange a bit on the right hand corner." I don't try to control a sunset. I watch with awe as it unfolds.”
thank you for writing this. It makes me reflect. As I grow older, I realize more and more than connections in life come and go. Life is really a passing of many different people in your story. Some will stay for very long while some will only be there for a short bit of time.
I don't have any critique or anything to add. I just want to say that this resonates with me very deeply.
I'm very happy to have this complex feeling articulated in such a beautiful way.
> Sometimes I feel that it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship.
Lately I feel like this about traditional romantic relationships as well. After a while many people start developing expectations of the other person and assume that they will or can meet all of your needs, when that's actually pretty unrealistic. I was in a six year relationship when I noticed that my partner wasn't meeting my needs anymore, and that my expectations of him which had grown over the years weren't really aligned with a healthy reality; this applied the other way around as well in terms of my partner's expectations of me as a person who's changed over the years. I recently left the relationship and am now re-examining my own outlook on the traditional relationship models.
Someone called this selfless but I see a very strong selfishness in this approach, sure you're at the center of your life but if we all stand by our own fires, nobody meets anybody and it is important to recognize when you go sit by someone else's fire because that part is dearly missing from your description.
I suppose a campfire implies the person tending it is stationary but metaphorically, I imagined our campfires are all moving not unlike spaceships coming in and out of docking. Travellers come and go but they inhabit the same space rather than them all travelling to and from one person.
On the days that weigh us down, we can remember our meetings (however brief) with people who are open and/or kind and/or thoughtful - as well as those who responded to a dilemma with a helpful solution and without expectations of gain.
Calling such meetings 'mere romanticism' is to be blind to the fact that there is much about the world that we cannot comprehend. Sometimes coincidences pile up far beyond what the numbers declare possible. It's all lost on those who scoff ... and they may indeed die unnoticed.
Do you blog/tweet/etc other thoughts about this kind of thing? That's a great philosophy and I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on surrounding topics.
"it can be a lucrative trap to become invested in a single person, and then accumulate expectations that far outweigh the responsible obligations of any friendship"
Expectations aren't what friendship is about. A friendship is a little club where you conspire to make both your lives better
While this mentality seems comforting, make no mistake: its appeal is only a consequence of the erosion of family and community over the last 200 years in the western world.
As a commenter said below: an avoidance of long-term commitments leads to a society that doesn’t plan very far into the future.
As I have gotten older, a pattern that is working much better for me is the campfire model - I just try to keep a metaphorical campfire going, for people traveling through this life to stop and warm themselves upon while I tend it. I cannot know which direction people are traveling from, or to, or how long their journey has been or will be. But all people need to warm their calloused hands and feet, and I can keep this fire with a bed of rosy coals.
Sometimes someone will stop at my fire and warm themselves without my ever having paid attention, but to them it may have meant all the difference in the world. By keeping this obligation in mind, to simply expect people to need a place to sit a spell, I can at least believe I am helping.
The campfire is a nice way for me to remember we're all suffering, that not a one of us is unique to loneliness. Because sometimes that person who sits down at your fire is the person you have been waiting for, and only by making a seat for them were you able to ever meet.