After spending a lot of time alone (mostly during quarantine - ironically in NYC, a place I moved to in March given it's lower barrier of entry to all things social), as someone who pulls more to the side of introvert but can be socially functional in group settings, I'm pretty sure that being alone with less social contact causes me far less stress and anxiety. So in other words, I'm finding that although there are benefits to being social, the fact that I've saved boat loads of money and have less stress from worthless small talk seems like an ideal way to live. Which sucks, because I've also realized that networking is the only true "hack" in essence to get past the drudgery of coding interviews / otherwise opaque career ladders.
I delineate my introvert / extrovert brain by classifying people I deem "interesting enough to talk to" and "people I'd rather not talk to". For this reason, work interactions always seem to go better than off hand social interactions. If someone is condescending or rude then I'd just rather not waste time talking to them. At this point in my life I don't really feel it's worth the effort to force social interaction in either direction, some people like you others won't - dating also gets easier if you take this approach.
Something I'm curious of is if "lonely" brains are less healthy? Also, for reference - the best point of comparison for social anxiety in my case is analogous to why I don't see the point in fancy cars. I drive a 2001 nissan, but I never worry about where I park it, if it gets dented or worry about someone keying it. If I drove a lambo, I'd constantly be worried (even subconsciously) about this kind of thing.
> less social contact causes me far less stress and anxiety
I used to be recluse, then had a social epiphany, temporarily .. so I'm now oddly situated because I remember the need and joy of social bond a bit but I'm back to hyperanxious social mode. Which means I tend to go back to walking alone because it's so lighter.
One anecdote, 10 years ago, I went to a birthday party, a time where I hated social gatherings pretty much. Yet the day after I felt 'replenished' of somethings. As if my internal world couldn't satisfy me fully and even dreaded parties were benefitial.
for me there is definitely a "grass is greener" effect with friends. I seem to go through an endless cycle of having either too many or too few. I prefer to spend most of my day-to-day alone, but I feel very lonely when I don't have enough local friends to reliably find a social event on friday/saturday nights. on the flip side, having too many friends quickly becomes stressful. I don't know how to gracefully handle the situation where I get invited to do more things in a week than I have the social energy for. sometimes it gets to the point where just replying to all the invitations saps most of my social "budget" for that week. I end up doing a lot of stuff that I don't really want to do just to avoid declining someone's invitations over and over. eventually, I semi-intentionally let friendships fizzle out and forgo forging new ones (since I am still in the "excess" mindset). then I am back to square one and the cycle restarts.
I think there is a sort of critical mass effect with friends. when I only have one or two, I have to try really hard to make a third. once I hit a certain number of friends with overlapping circles of their own, it's easy to make new friends whenever I want. but then it starts snowballing fast and suddenly I find myself in a deluge of messages and invitations that I don't want. I'd love to be able to hover in that sweet spot, but I don't know how to make that happen.
Just get comfortable saying no without explaining yourself. The fact is that your calendar should not have public read-only permissions, which is the way you're behaving when you feel obligated to justify a declination of an invitation.
It's possible to say no for no reason at all without being rude or discouraging: "Thanks for the invite — can't tonight. Raincheck?". If you really like the person and want to develop more intimacy, you can be even more transparent, "I'd love to, but I'm over-socialized this week. Gonna chill tonight. Have fun!"
The fact is that we LOVE IT when others set and maintain healthy boundaries. It removes ambiguity from the relationship, which makes it easier to feel comfortable in. It also sets an example that the other can follow without fear of alienating you. There's also the side effect of giving people the impression that your presence is precious commodity, and should be valued—which it should be!
Being a well-connected introvert can be fun and easy ;P
I've observed this too. There's certainly a threshold to break out of my own thought / reality bubble. However, I've caught myself exploiting the "positives" of this, in that I still only have so much social energy. Even when events go well, I tend to get worse at managing my social time. However, finding outlets for being social that I actually enjoy and don't find tiresome is a risk worth taking. Generally, I'm glad that at this point I've sort of stopped caring about being "like-able", "cool" or socially "known" in my circles.
> One anecdote, 10 years ago, I went to a birthday party, a time where I hated social gatherings pretty much. Yet the day after I felt 'replenished' of somethings. As if my internal world couldn't satisfy me fully and even dreaded parties were benefitial.
I'm the same way towards social gatherings. As a result, I try to remind myself before going to one that I may hate that feeling of dread leading up to it, but that on the other side of it I am going to feel great. That doesn't mean I can be social all the time, but I think even introverts need that regular dose of social activity to feel whole. If anything, it makes those alone times we enjoy even more valuable as there's a contrast.
I agree. It's also a good and healthy attitude in life not to assume past dreadful events will repeat forever. So moving along, peeking here and there. See how it goes.. being curious. A bit.
This is nice to read, and very relatable. It took me a while to understand that social interaction is like leg days at the gym. It's painful if you are not used to it, therefore people tend to avoid it and end unbalanced.
As an introvert, forcing yourself to endure greater efforts of socialization reduces social anxiety, and ironically, makes life as an introvert easier as you no longer live in one of the extremes: you like to be alone, but you're not afraid to be with people.
As with leg day, if you don't use it, you lose it. This lock down has made hermits of some introverts, it takes effort to stay socially fit.
Seth Roberts wrote that he noticed a similar correlation in 1995 which he hypothesized came down to "morning faces". If he saw faces in the morning, he was happier the next day. He went on to test this therapy on himself for many years:
If you’re open to the spoons concept of interaction (any given person only has a finite number of spoons available for use until they need to be resupplied), there’s lots of different kinds of spoons. I have similar experiences: I’ll dread and stress a social experience until it comes, drain myself during it, then wake to find something full that was running low, something I may not have even been keeping track of.
There’s also a concept of mixed introvert/extrovert, and more to my liking a concept of introversion not being antisocial but craving certain intimate kinds of social experiences.
I thrive on a very small, somewhat malleable but always close social world. All other social demands are conditional on my ability and comfort. But my close social world can come call or (metaphorically during pandemic) hug or snuggle any time
I got fed up with it, been somewhat a loner all my life(main exception was nightlife starting in the late teens, social life at work always messed me up, I have had very little interest in work ppl), I feel like there always had a lot of stuff I wanted to explore internally, intellectually, etc. Now though I feel like I've exhausted that and would prefer the unpredictableness of social life, and also feel more like sharing.. In a way now it seems egoistic to have tried grasping a lot of stuff to then just doing nothing with it.
My big thoughts are mostly the same, moving in the same rate when I'm cooking them up by myself but now in social situations I feel like I can crack some great jokes and mental maneuvers in trying to translate my philosophies to others.
I think being a true loner brings peace in that you don't need to think much about social pressures and such, on another hand though, it can feel a bit like you're some virtual computing machine entity isolated from everything else. Now I'm sort of looking at mental & physical exertion as a way to distract me from the boredom of 'not existing', maybe it was always that and I've been good at it, took skateboarding at 27, practicing by myself like some crazy person 6 years already, and now I started working on a game project too.. It's just weird to me how self-exertion and 'social fasting' go together. But anyway, I've exhausted so many interests already that I sort of crave of breaking off of it, I'd just take some 5 or 6 projects with me and that's it.
Social lives aren't unpredictable. They're almost comically predictable as time goes on.
Everyone in a group falls into patterns, roles. The same jokes get told, or variations there-of. You do the same thing every year. BBQ for Bob's birthday. Jill hosts a cheese/wine night a couple of times over winter. The geekier sub-group all gather to watch the first few episodes of the new marvel series. Everyone gets together for a picnic in woolaton park on the first or second sunny weekend of sunmer.
Occasionally something new gets thrown in, and if everyone likes it, it becomes the 'new' regular thing. Or something gets dropped due to changes in life or circumstances. No more games nights till 2am now 80% of my male friends have kids. No more Saturday night clubbing in the cookie club after we left our 20s.
If you want to keep doing unpredictable things, you really have to meet someone who's extremely hyper/exhausting, or keep joing new social groups (by meetups, etc.). And of course, they become predictable too, by their very nature being a scheduled meetup about a specific thing.
And it's worth it. Personally I feel the best experience in life is laughing so hard you end up crying while chatting with your friends.
You bring up a good point, even though I enjoyed drinking / partying with a startup I worked at in college, an experience I wouldn't trade for anything - at 26 I draw serious boundaries between work "outings" / social groups and personal friend groups. Personally, if I ever had a startup there'd be no alcohol at work and work would be for work. The last thing I need is someone claiming someone said something off color at a work outing. Work friends also get messy when you leave a company for good or bad reasons.
I was actually convinced by the stoics that social and public life participation is some kind of human imperative :P
I also believe humans are social animals, but really actually most of what society or civilization pretends to be is bullshit to me, but I think when you dig there's always more to it to discover and etc(+sometimes you appear to have found gold ie.: epiphanies), the thing isn't maybe that you'd want to interact with it on your terms instead of doing the play along game? I was never the play along type but for example lately a big topic of interest to me has been language, culture and communication.. I don't know I just like getting stuff from the root. But anyway your take might be completely different.
Loneliness is primarily a psychological state. A person who spends a lot of time alone, and is ok with that, is not lonely. Conversely, there are people who say they feel lonely even when they are in the company of others.
Since you don’t seem to have a problem with spending time alone, you are not lonely and the purported* results of this study don’t apply to you.
*I am skeptical of this study’s validity but that is irrelevant to what constitutes ‘loneliness’.
>Loneliness is primarily a psychological state. A person who spends a lot of time alone, and is ok with that, is not lonely.
Not entirely though. Part of it can be self-dellusion, and the persons can still feel worse off for being alone even if introverted, but not consciously be able to process it. Humans are social animals, introversion can be part of a development issue (like being on the spectrum).
but the "socialness" is a spectrum no? i am not introverted, or shy, or a weirdo (actually good looking and women are constantly hitting on me) yet a loner. it took me a long time to accept this. there is too much cultural/social pressure to not be a loner.
i am not interested in company, or sex. i really really really prefer to be alone, and mostly am. i live in a place i can hike 3-4 hours a day, i don't have close neighbors, i work from home.
so, honestly and without sarcasm you would say i'm delusional? i personally have never met anyone as happy as me. maybe i am delusional. :)
For me, coming to the realization that less social contact causes less stress and anxiety was a game changer. I struggled on and off with mental health issues for a good chunk of my adult life. I found myself constantly in situations that were triggering or exhausting, and I couldn't understand how "normal" people managed to survive without falling apart. At some point I realized I could just give up trying to do "normal" things and actually that didn't make me a bad person.
I divorced and didn't bother looking for a new partner. I stopped going to weddings and birthdays and other social events that had always stressed me out. I didn't become a hermit - I still go out to events that interest me and happily engage with strangers, I'm not worried about interacting with colleagues or customers in a work environment. The difference is that now social interactions are on my own terms, there isn't any pressure to appear or to perform in situations that I'm not interested in or that I have no contractual obligation to fulfill. It's let a massive weight off my shoulders and given me a much more positive outlook on life. I don't take any mood medication any more, I don't see a psychologist, my emotional health is so much better.
I've often wondered if this means I am an introvert. I don't hate other people - on the contrary, I always try to be kind and respectful, and I try to see the humanity in people, even those who hold different views to me. I care a lot about society and the future of our species and our planet. I just don't feel a need to have social interactions in these tight-knit groups, having realized that they were the source of pretty much all my emotional struggles.
One thing I do think is important to note is that this is somewhat of a privileged position to be in - things would be much harder for me if I were in a position where I needed to depend on familial or tribal support for survival. The longer I live like this, and meet other people who feel the same way, the more I've become convinced that a universal basic income is important, since it liberates people from having to be involved in social structures that might be harming their mental health. On the other hand, would deemphasizing family in a broader scale cause more loneliness in society? The article suggests lonely people are at higher risk of dementia, so is this actually a bad direction for society to take? It's interesting.
> I've often wondered if this means I am an introvert. I don't hate other people
I think the most basic and least-controversial definition is that introverts feel the need to "recharge" after a period of socializing whereas extroverts want an encore.
It's entirely possible to be introverted and also gregarious, outgoing, etc... It just means you need more breaks.
It’s a horoscope at this point. Literally everyone identifies with the need to “recharge”. Ever notice how everyone identifies with introversion using these definitions?
Also, the most common definition people seem to be using is whether they feel social anxiety and whether or not they think someone else does. Though it’s kinda bring-your-own; the person above wonders if introverts hate people thus maybe they aren’t because they don’t hate people.
The words never clarify discussion. We should drop them and just say what we mean.
I think you're right that it's a good idea to avoid using the terms introvert and extrovert.
In my original post I was perhaps falling a bit for a stereotype that introverts are also misanthropic. A more accurate description for me would be that I generally feel more at peace when I am picking my own path through life and don't have any close or intimate relationships interfering with that. I'm not sure it's social events per se that bring me stress, it's more the sense that I am obliged or expected to perform that causes me anxiety.
What's still an interesting question for me is whether the sorts of negative health effects that - according to the article - are correlated with loneliness also happen to people who make a conscious choice to live more independent lifestyles. Is it physical isolation that causes these problems, or does it also happen to people who do superficially socialize in public but generally do so alone? Or are neither of these things a problem, only loneliness is a problem?
You articulated my feelings much better than I could've hoped to! I also struggled with mental health qualms through college, largely aided by an ADHD diagnosis at 22. Now that I know I'm on the fringes of the autism scale I've accepted that dating / relationships usually don't provide more social energy or positives than stress, negatives, or situations that make me feel lost or socially distant.
I sort of wonder if I'm giving something up by basically giving up on dating - but I've reached a very warm peace with it all as of late.
> I've often wondered if this means I am an introvert. I don't hate other people - on the contrary, I always try to be kind and respectful, and I try to see the humanity in people, even those who hold different views to me. I care a lot about society and the future of our species and our planet. I just don't feel a need to have social interactions in these tight-knit groups, having realized that they were the source of pretty much all my emotional struggles.
I don't think whether one is an introvert necessarily has anything to do with whether one is kind and respectful. While being kind certainly seems like a beneficial thing if you're an extrovert, it doesn't seem quite necessary, and on the flip side preferring a quiet room doesn't mean one can't be kind.
At least, I feel the same as you in that I'm certainly not one to do lots of partying (ignoring the special case of 2020), but I always try to be kind, helpful, etc. I'm not sure I can find myself in your story about emotional struggles, but that might just be my young age.
> One thing I do think is important to note is that this is somewhat of a privileged position to be in
Agree completely, there are various advantages to being wealthy enough to make your own choices about how to organise your life. This amount of wealth does not even necessarily mean "being rich", though in a sense we in that position are definitely rich (both money and other things), even if there are people far richer in terms of monetary value. And those "various advantages" can wind up being more than one may think, both those in the position of wealth and those not in that position.
good for you. i would say the problem was that culture has a problem with loners, and won't leave us alone. we have to conform and be social. so we try. and it kills some of us. i'm glad you have figured it out.
> Which sucks, because I've also realized that networking is the only true "hack" in essence to get past the drudgery of coding interviews / otherwise opaque career ladders
You seem like you write pretty well - have you thought about blogging/twitter as an alternative to sifting through people at meetups in person? I've found it to be much more natural and easier as well.
Thanks! Usually my own view of my writing is that it's hard to follow, robotic, or a bit scattered (much like my brain). But if you like reading it I'd definitely consider starting an anonymous blog of some kind! Feel free to ping me at chivalrousmowing@protonmail.com .
Out of curiosity, why the desire for anonymity - particularly if the subject matter is technical in nature?
I imagine it considerably harder (not impossible!) to convert anonymous blog posts into contracts/job leads, compared with something that has your name and work history attached.
Of course, I'm not ignoring the very real potential downsides and repercussions to writing online about politics, religion, drugs, etc - but based on your posting history here your interests would do plenty fine on a general purpose blog.
Idk, certain things that aren't inherently political could be perceived as such. I actually really like reading about economics, unfortunately in our current political climate - many would likely try to make grand assumptions of my politics / ethics based on how I think about economics.
If I'm ever able to transition to contracting or living off of my endeavors full time I'd write under my true name. Unfortunately, I'm still a white collar wage slave.
Fair enough. I absolutely agree that having a source of income not controlled by another legal entity is the ideal place to write from, and I look forward to being there myself someday.
Wishing you luck with writing in whatever form feels most comfortable!
"Lonely people have been found, for example, to focus more on internal thoughts, perhaps to compensate for their lack of actual social experiences."
Well, for me, I daydream and live in my head a lot but I don't think I've ever really felt lonely in the last 10 years at least. So my brain probably looks like this but I would've responded to their survey with "not lonely". Maybe from their point of view I've been coping so long I don't even realise it?
I think a better study would have segmented out people who have limited social contact but don't feel lonely.
Post-apocalyptic movies with a small cast have a strange appeal to me, like it's the ideal small unit of society. We sort of got to experience that earlier this year in Sydney, with few cars on the road, no one walking around outside, and times when I didn't leave the house for days on end except to walk the dog. It was bliss. I had my dog and my wife and a few people on chat, and that's all I needed.
What do you think of the following: There's a range of different things one can get out of interacting with people—seeing a friendly face, intellectual conversation, doing an activity together, discussing problems, emotional support, things one would do with a lover, and so on. I'm certain that there is large variation in how much people need of each of these things, or how much it bothers them if they don't get it. Then I would define "loneliness" to mean "there is some type of interaction you need that you're not getting".
Hmm in that particular case I'd say it's a little bit more on the "you're getting things you don't want" more than just a lack. There's a kind of aggression of being surrounded by people in a very different state of mind. My 2 cents
I find personally that there's a vague sort of pyramid structure to my social needs. Frivolous socializing is a fun break when my deeper social needs are met, but I start to resent it when it's the majority of my socializing.
Many overtly social people I know seem to use social interaction as a sort of crutch for avoiding solving personal issues. Then again, I have friends who just seem to be inherently "good" at being social without a distinct narrative or motive. I wish I could be like that, this is likely why I've fucked up a lot of "serious" relationships in the past.
I don’t know… I think I’d like to say only that they should learn to be alone and try to spend as much time as possible by themselves. I think one of the faults of young people today is that they try to come together around events that are noisy, almost aggressive at times. This desire to be together in order to not feel alone is an unfortunate symptom, in my opinion. Every person needs to learn from childhood how to spend time with oneself. That doesn’t mean he should be lonely, but that he shouldn’t grow bored with himself because people who grow bored in their own company seem to me in danger, from a self-esteem point of view.
I don't have a hard time being alone but I suspect it would be different if I didn't have at least online interactions with people. I start to talk to myself out loud after a while if not around other people.
I have that particular anxiety and I like fancy cars. People who buy fancy or fancier cars want the experience of driving those cars. It's not necessarily that they don't worry about the cars getting keyed or something (that varies), it's that the car is worth the anxiety (for those who have the anxiety -- some people genuinely don't care).
If you ever want to step up a little without sacrificing the "I don't care if it gets keyed", consider a late-model Hyundai. They're actually quite nice. And you will never care what happens to it.
>People who buy fancy or fancier cars want the experience of driving those cars. //
Of the people I've known with fancy cars, that group would be a minority versus those who want you to know they are rich (even if they're not that rich!). Many people buy the badge/appearance AFAICT, and don't care about handling or other factors.
I should add, that I probably suffer from a latent poverty mindset in this instance (regarding fancy cars). I can imagine if I had enough money or wealth past a certain degree I could care less if my massively expensive car was keyed etc. I'm still trying to pin down the number at which I have so much money my anxiety about luxuries and indulgences largely goes away. Unfortunately, I think this number for me is at least $8MM :(
However, I'd still be weary of my new 4x4 Mercedes Sprinter Van being scratched and I only paid $45k for that new. However, there are benefits to parking in a secured garage in manhattan haha.
The dealers make most of their profit on the financing. If you walk in and let them know you won't be borrowing any money they treat you like shit. This and other things (registration period = we have your cash, you don't have the title) are why I don't buy cars from dealers.
Well, if they make most of their profit on financing, a cash purchase would be lower. That has also been my experience. I think you accidentally made a mistake in the wording of your post.
> Well, if they make most of their profit on financing, a cash purchase would be lower.
Er, no. They need to make a profit. If they don't get some profit kicked back from the bank as part of the financing package they need to raise the purchase price in order to preserve that level of profit.
You can't buy a car for the "financed price" without financing. You have to pay the higher "cash price". The whole "bargaining and negotiating" dance that car dealers do is simply to hide the fact that there are two different prices.
The total price of a financed purchase includes the cost of the finance charge, down payment and amount financed. You are conflating the price to the buyer with the sticker price.
You can buy the car for the car, or as a display of wealth. This is independent of having wealth to spare.
If you do have plenty of wealth to spare, maybe you don't worry about dents. Just tell your people that you spotted a dent, and they'll get the car fixed or replaced.
Being nervous about dents isn't great for displaying wealth. It's better to park on a busy street in San Francisco, right next to a tent city where people have set up shop selling car parts. That shows everybody you don't worry about the money.
I delineate my introvert / extrovert brain by classifying people I deem "interesting enough to talk to" and "people I'd rather not talk to". For this reason, work interactions always seem to go better than off hand social interactions. If someone is condescending or rude then I'd just rather not waste time talking to them. At this point in my life I don't really feel it's worth the effort to force social interaction in either direction, some people like you others won't - dating also gets easier if you take this approach.
Something I'm curious of is if "lonely" brains are less healthy? Also, for reference - the best point of comparison for social anxiety in my case is analogous to why I don't see the point in fancy cars. I drive a 2001 nissan, but I never worry about where I park it, if it gets dented or worry about someone keying it. If I drove a lambo, I'd constantly be worried (even subconsciously) about this kind of thing.