After spending a lot of time alone (mostly during quarantine - ironically in NYC, a place I moved to in March given it's lower barrier of entry to all things social), as someone who pulls more to the side of introvert but can be socially functional in group settings, I'm pretty sure that being alone with less social contact causes me far less stress and anxiety. So in other words, I'm finding that although there are benefits to being social, the fact that I've saved boat loads of money and have less stress from worthless small talk seems like an ideal way to live. Which sucks, because I've also realized that networking is the only true "hack" in essence to get past the drudgery of coding interviews / otherwise opaque career ladders.
I delineate my introvert / extrovert brain by classifying people I deem "interesting enough to talk to" and "people I'd rather not talk to". For this reason, work interactions always seem to go better than off hand social interactions. If someone is condescending or rude then I'd just rather not waste time talking to them. At this point in my life I don't really feel it's worth the effort to force social interaction in either direction, some people like you others won't - dating also gets easier if you take this approach.
Something I'm curious of is if "lonely" brains are less healthy? Also, for reference - the best point of comparison for social anxiety in my case is analogous to why I don't see the point in fancy cars. I drive a 2001 nissan, but I never worry about where I park it, if it gets dented or worry about someone keying it. If I drove a lambo, I'd constantly be worried (even subconsciously) about this kind of thing.
> less social contact causes me far less stress and anxiety
I used to be recluse, then had a social epiphany, temporarily .. so I'm now oddly situated because I remember the need and joy of social bond a bit but I'm back to hyperanxious social mode. Which means I tend to go back to walking alone because it's so lighter.
One anecdote, 10 years ago, I went to a birthday party, a time where I hated social gatherings pretty much. Yet the day after I felt 'replenished' of somethings. As if my internal world couldn't satisfy me fully and even dreaded parties were benefitial.
for me there is definitely a "grass is greener" effect with friends. I seem to go through an endless cycle of having either too many or too few. I prefer to spend most of my day-to-day alone, but I feel very lonely when I don't have enough local friends to reliably find a social event on friday/saturday nights. on the flip side, having too many friends quickly becomes stressful. I don't know how to gracefully handle the situation where I get invited to do more things in a week than I have the social energy for. sometimes it gets to the point where just replying to all the invitations saps most of my social "budget" for that week. I end up doing a lot of stuff that I don't really want to do just to avoid declining someone's invitations over and over. eventually, I semi-intentionally let friendships fizzle out and forgo forging new ones (since I am still in the "excess" mindset). then I am back to square one and the cycle restarts.
I think there is a sort of critical mass effect with friends. when I only have one or two, I have to try really hard to make a third. once I hit a certain number of friends with overlapping circles of their own, it's easy to make new friends whenever I want. but then it starts snowballing fast and suddenly I find myself in a deluge of messages and invitations that I don't want. I'd love to be able to hover in that sweet spot, but I don't know how to make that happen.
Just get comfortable saying no without explaining yourself. The fact is that your calendar should not have public read-only permissions, which is the way you're behaving when you feel obligated to justify a declination of an invitation.
It's possible to say no for no reason at all without being rude or discouraging: "Thanks for the invite — can't tonight. Raincheck?". If you really like the person and want to develop more intimacy, you can be even more transparent, "I'd love to, but I'm over-socialized this week. Gonna chill tonight. Have fun!"
The fact is that we LOVE IT when others set and maintain healthy boundaries. It removes ambiguity from the relationship, which makes it easier to feel comfortable in. It also sets an example that the other can follow without fear of alienating you. There's also the side effect of giving people the impression that your presence is precious commodity, and should be valued—which it should be!
Being a well-connected introvert can be fun and easy ;P
I've observed this too. There's certainly a threshold to break out of my own thought / reality bubble. However, I've caught myself exploiting the "positives" of this, in that I still only have so much social energy. Even when events go well, I tend to get worse at managing my social time. However, finding outlets for being social that I actually enjoy and don't find tiresome is a risk worth taking. Generally, I'm glad that at this point I've sort of stopped caring about being "like-able", "cool" or socially "known" in my circles.
> One anecdote, 10 years ago, I went to a birthday party, a time where I hated social gatherings pretty much. Yet the day after I felt 'replenished' of somethings. As if my internal world couldn't satisfy me fully and even dreaded parties were benefitial.
I'm the same way towards social gatherings. As a result, I try to remind myself before going to one that I may hate that feeling of dread leading up to it, but that on the other side of it I am going to feel great. That doesn't mean I can be social all the time, but I think even introverts need that regular dose of social activity to feel whole. If anything, it makes those alone times we enjoy even more valuable as there's a contrast.
I agree. It's also a good and healthy attitude in life not to assume past dreadful events will repeat forever. So moving along, peeking here and there. See how it goes.. being curious. A bit.
This is nice to read, and very relatable. It took me a while to understand that social interaction is like leg days at the gym. It's painful if you are not used to it, therefore people tend to avoid it and end unbalanced.
As an introvert, forcing yourself to endure greater efforts of socialization reduces social anxiety, and ironically, makes life as an introvert easier as you no longer live in one of the extremes: you like to be alone, but you're not afraid to be with people.
As with leg day, if you don't use it, you lose it. This lock down has made hermits of some introverts, it takes effort to stay socially fit.
Seth Roberts wrote that he noticed a similar correlation in 1995 which he hypothesized came down to "morning faces". If he saw faces in the morning, he was happier the next day. He went on to test this therapy on himself for many years:
If you’re open to the spoons concept of interaction (any given person only has a finite number of spoons available for use until they need to be resupplied), there’s lots of different kinds of spoons. I have similar experiences: I’ll dread and stress a social experience until it comes, drain myself during it, then wake to find something full that was running low, something I may not have even been keeping track of.
There’s also a concept of mixed introvert/extrovert, and more to my liking a concept of introversion not being antisocial but craving certain intimate kinds of social experiences.
I thrive on a very small, somewhat malleable but always close social world. All other social demands are conditional on my ability and comfort. But my close social world can come call or (metaphorically during pandemic) hug or snuggle any time
I got fed up with it, been somewhat a loner all my life(main exception was nightlife starting in the late teens, social life at work always messed me up, I have had very little interest in work ppl), I feel like there always had a lot of stuff I wanted to explore internally, intellectually, etc. Now though I feel like I've exhausted that and would prefer the unpredictableness of social life, and also feel more like sharing.. In a way now it seems egoistic to have tried grasping a lot of stuff to then just doing nothing with it.
My big thoughts are mostly the same, moving in the same rate when I'm cooking them up by myself but now in social situations I feel like I can crack some great jokes and mental maneuvers in trying to translate my philosophies to others.
I think being a true loner brings peace in that you don't need to think much about social pressures and such, on another hand though, it can feel a bit like you're some virtual computing machine entity isolated from everything else. Now I'm sort of looking at mental & physical exertion as a way to distract me from the boredom of 'not existing', maybe it was always that and I've been good at it, took skateboarding at 27, practicing by myself like some crazy person 6 years already, and now I started working on a game project too.. It's just weird to me how self-exertion and 'social fasting' go together. But anyway, I've exhausted so many interests already that I sort of crave of breaking off of it, I'd just take some 5 or 6 projects with me and that's it.
Social lives aren't unpredictable. They're almost comically predictable as time goes on.
Everyone in a group falls into patterns, roles. The same jokes get told, or variations there-of. You do the same thing every year. BBQ for Bob's birthday. Jill hosts a cheese/wine night a couple of times over winter. The geekier sub-group all gather to watch the first few episodes of the new marvel series. Everyone gets together for a picnic in woolaton park on the first or second sunny weekend of sunmer.
Occasionally something new gets thrown in, and if everyone likes it, it becomes the 'new' regular thing. Or something gets dropped due to changes in life or circumstances. No more games nights till 2am now 80% of my male friends have kids. No more Saturday night clubbing in the cookie club after we left our 20s.
If you want to keep doing unpredictable things, you really have to meet someone who's extremely hyper/exhausting, or keep joing new social groups (by meetups, etc.). And of course, they become predictable too, by their very nature being a scheduled meetup about a specific thing.
And it's worth it. Personally I feel the best experience in life is laughing so hard you end up crying while chatting with your friends.
You bring up a good point, even though I enjoyed drinking / partying with a startup I worked at in college, an experience I wouldn't trade for anything - at 26 I draw serious boundaries between work "outings" / social groups and personal friend groups. Personally, if I ever had a startup there'd be no alcohol at work and work would be for work. The last thing I need is someone claiming someone said something off color at a work outing. Work friends also get messy when you leave a company for good or bad reasons.
I was actually convinced by the stoics that social and public life participation is some kind of human imperative :P
I also believe humans are social animals, but really actually most of what society or civilization pretends to be is bullshit to me, but I think when you dig there's always more to it to discover and etc(+sometimes you appear to have found gold ie.: epiphanies), the thing isn't maybe that you'd want to interact with it on your terms instead of doing the play along game? I was never the play along type but for example lately a big topic of interest to me has been language, culture and communication.. I don't know I just like getting stuff from the root. But anyway your take might be completely different.
Loneliness is primarily a psychological state. A person who spends a lot of time alone, and is ok with that, is not lonely. Conversely, there are people who say they feel lonely even when they are in the company of others.
Since you don’t seem to have a problem with spending time alone, you are not lonely and the purported* results of this study don’t apply to you.
*I am skeptical of this study’s validity but that is irrelevant to what constitutes ‘loneliness’.
>Loneliness is primarily a psychological state. A person who spends a lot of time alone, and is ok with that, is not lonely.
Not entirely though. Part of it can be self-dellusion, and the persons can still feel worse off for being alone even if introverted, but not consciously be able to process it. Humans are social animals, introversion can be part of a development issue (like being on the spectrum).
but the "socialness" is a spectrum no? i am not introverted, or shy, or a weirdo (actually good looking and women are constantly hitting on me) yet a loner. it took me a long time to accept this. there is too much cultural/social pressure to not be a loner.
i am not interested in company, or sex. i really really really prefer to be alone, and mostly am. i live in a place i can hike 3-4 hours a day, i don't have close neighbors, i work from home.
so, honestly and without sarcasm you would say i'm delusional? i personally have never met anyone as happy as me. maybe i am delusional. :)
For me, coming to the realization that less social contact causes less stress and anxiety was a game changer. I struggled on and off with mental health issues for a good chunk of my adult life. I found myself constantly in situations that were triggering or exhausting, and I couldn't understand how "normal" people managed to survive without falling apart. At some point I realized I could just give up trying to do "normal" things and actually that didn't make me a bad person.
I divorced and didn't bother looking for a new partner. I stopped going to weddings and birthdays and other social events that had always stressed me out. I didn't become a hermit - I still go out to events that interest me and happily engage with strangers, I'm not worried about interacting with colleagues or customers in a work environment. The difference is that now social interactions are on my own terms, there isn't any pressure to appear or to perform in situations that I'm not interested in or that I have no contractual obligation to fulfill. It's let a massive weight off my shoulders and given me a much more positive outlook on life. I don't take any mood medication any more, I don't see a psychologist, my emotional health is so much better.
I've often wondered if this means I am an introvert. I don't hate other people - on the contrary, I always try to be kind and respectful, and I try to see the humanity in people, even those who hold different views to me. I care a lot about society and the future of our species and our planet. I just don't feel a need to have social interactions in these tight-knit groups, having realized that they were the source of pretty much all my emotional struggles.
One thing I do think is important to note is that this is somewhat of a privileged position to be in - things would be much harder for me if I were in a position where I needed to depend on familial or tribal support for survival. The longer I live like this, and meet other people who feel the same way, the more I've become convinced that a universal basic income is important, since it liberates people from having to be involved in social structures that might be harming their mental health. On the other hand, would deemphasizing family in a broader scale cause more loneliness in society? The article suggests lonely people are at higher risk of dementia, so is this actually a bad direction for society to take? It's interesting.
> I've often wondered if this means I am an introvert. I don't hate other people
I think the most basic and least-controversial definition is that introverts feel the need to "recharge" after a period of socializing whereas extroverts want an encore.
It's entirely possible to be introverted and also gregarious, outgoing, etc... It just means you need more breaks.
It’s a horoscope at this point. Literally everyone identifies with the need to “recharge”. Ever notice how everyone identifies with introversion using these definitions?
Also, the most common definition people seem to be using is whether they feel social anxiety and whether or not they think someone else does. Though it’s kinda bring-your-own; the person above wonders if introverts hate people thus maybe they aren’t because they don’t hate people.
The words never clarify discussion. We should drop them and just say what we mean.
I think you're right that it's a good idea to avoid using the terms introvert and extrovert.
In my original post I was perhaps falling a bit for a stereotype that introverts are also misanthropic. A more accurate description for me would be that I generally feel more at peace when I am picking my own path through life and don't have any close or intimate relationships interfering with that. I'm not sure it's social events per se that bring me stress, it's more the sense that I am obliged or expected to perform that causes me anxiety.
What's still an interesting question for me is whether the sorts of negative health effects that - according to the article - are correlated with loneliness also happen to people who make a conscious choice to live more independent lifestyles. Is it physical isolation that causes these problems, or does it also happen to people who do superficially socialize in public but generally do so alone? Or are neither of these things a problem, only loneliness is a problem?
You articulated my feelings much better than I could've hoped to! I also struggled with mental health qualms through college, largely aided by an ADHD diagnosis at 22. Now that I know I'm on the fringes of the autism scale I've accepted that dating / relationships usually don't provide more social energy or positives than stress, negatives, or situations that make me feel lost or socially distant.
I sort of wonder if I'm giving something up by basically giving up on dating - but I've reached a very warm peace with it all as of late.
> I've often wondered if this means I am an introvert. I don't hate other people - on the contrary, I always try to be kind and respectful, and I try to see the humanity in people, even those who hold different views to me. I care a lot about society and the future of our species and our planet. I just don't feel a need to have social interactions in these tight-knit groups, having realized that they were the source of pretty much all my emotional struggles.
I don't think whether one is an introvert necessarily has anything to do with whether one is kind and respectful. While being kind certainly seems like a beneficial thing if you're an extrovert, it doesn't seem quite necessary, and on the flip side preferring a quiet room doesn't mean one can't be kind.
At least, I feel the same as you in that I'm certainly not one to do lots of partying (ignoring the special case of 2020), but I always try to be kind, helpful, etc. I'm not sure I can find myself in your story about emotional struggles, but that might just be my young age.
> One thing I do think is important to note is that this is somewhat of a privileged position to be in
Agree completely, there are various advantages to being wealthy enough to make your own choices about how to organise your life. This amount of wealth does not even necessarily mean "being rich", though in a sense we in that position are definitely rich (both money and other things), even if there are people far richer in terms of monetary value. And those "various advantages" can wind up being more than one may think, both those in the position of wealth and those not in that position.
good for you. i would say the problem was that culture has a problem with loners, and won't leave us alone. we have to conform and be social. so we try. and it kills some of us. i'm glad you have figured it out.
> Which sucks, because I've also realized that networking is the only true "hack" in essence to get past the drudgery of coding interviews / otherwise opaque career ladders
You seem like you write pretty well - have you thought about blogging/twitter as an alternative to sifting through people at meetups in person? I've found it to be much more natural and easier as well.
Thanks! Usually my own view of my writing is that it's hard to follow, robotic, or a bit scattered (much like my brain). But if you like reading it I'd definitely consider starting an anonymous blog of some kind! Feel free to ping me at chivalrousmowing@protonmail.com .
Out of curiosity, why the desire for anonymity - particularly if the subject matter is technical in nature?
I imagine it considerably harder (not impossible!) to convert anonymous blog posts into contracts/job leads, compared with something that has your name and work history attached.
Of course, I'm not ignoring the very real potential downsides and repercussions to writing online about politics, religion, drugs, etc - but based on your posting history here your interests would do plenty fine on a general purpose blog.
Idk, certain things that aren't inherently political could be perceived as such. I actually really like reading about economics, unfortunately in our current political climate - many would likely try to make grand assumptions of my politics / ethics based on how I think about economics.
If I'm ever able to transition to contracting or living off of my endeavors full time I'd write under my true name. Unfortunately, I'm still a white collar wage slave.
Fair enough. I absolutely agree that having a source of income not controlled by another legal entity is the ideal place to write from, and I look forward to being there myself someday.
Wishing you luck with writing in whatever form feels most comfortable!
"Lonely people have been found, for example, to focus more on internal thoughts, perhaps to compensate for their lack of actual social experiences."
Well, for me, I daydream and live in my head a lot but I don't think I've ever really felt lonely in the last 10 years at least. So my brain probably looks like this but I would've responded to their survey with "not lonely". Maybe from their point of view I've been coping so long I don't even realise it?
I think a better study would have segmented out people who have limited social contact but don't feel lonely.
Post-apocalyptic movies with a small cast have a strange appeal to me, like it's the ideal small unit of society. We sort of got to experience that earlier this year in Sydney, with few cars on the road, no one walking around outside, and times when I didn't leave the house for days on end except to walk the dog. It was bliss. I had my dog and my wife and a few people on chat, and that's all I needed.
What do you think of the following: There's a range of different things one can get out of interacting with people—seeing a friendly face, intellectual conversation, doing an activity together, discussing problems, emotional support, things one would do with a lover, and so on. I'm certain that there is large variation in how much people need of each of these things, or how much it bothers them if they don't get it. Then I would define "loneliness" to mean "there is some type of interaction you need that you're not getting".
Hmm in that particular case I'd say it's a little bit more on the "you're getting things you don't want" more than just a lack. There's a kind of aggression of being surrounded by people in a very different state of mind. My 2 cents
I find personally that there's a vague sort of pyramid structure to my social needs. Frivolous socializing is a fun break when my deeper social needs are met, but I start to resent it when it's the majority of my socializing.
Many overtly social people I know seem to use social interaction as a sort of crutch for avoiding solving personal issues. Then again, I have friends who just seem to be inherently "good" at being social without a distinct narrative or motive. I wish I could be like that, this is likely why I've fucked up a lot of "serious" relationships in the past.
I don’t know… I think I’d like to say only that they should learn to be alone and try to spend as much time as possible by themselves. I think one of the faults of young people today is that they try to come together around events that are noisy, almost aggressive at times. This desire to be together in order to not feel alone is an unfortunate symptom, in my opinion. Every person needs to learn from childhood how to spend time with oneself. That doesn’t mean he should be lonely, but that he shouldn’t grow bored with himself because people who grow bored in their own company seem to me in danger, from a self-esteem point of view.
I don't have a hard time being alone but I suspect it would be different if I didn't have at least online interactions with people. I start to talk to myself out loud after a while if not around other people.
I have that particular anxiety and I like fancy cars. People who buy fancy or fancier cars want the experience of driving those cars. It's not necessarily that they don't worry about the cars getting keyed or something (that varies), it's that the car is worth the anxiety (for those who have the anxiety -- some people genuinely don't care).
If you ever want to step up a little without sacrificing the "I don't care if it gets keyed", consider a late-model Hyundai. They're actually quite nice. And you will never care what happens to it.
>People who buy fancy or fancier cars want the experience of driving those cars. //
Of the people I've known with fancy cars, that group would be a minority versus those who want you to know they are rich (even if they're not that rich!). Many people buy the badge/appearance AFAICT, and don't care about handling or other factors.
I should add, that I probably suffer from a latent poverty mindset in this instance (regarding fancy cars). I can imagine if I had enough money or wealth past a certain degree I could care less if my massively expensive car was keyed etc. I'm still trying to pin down the number at which I have so much money my anxiety about luxuries and indulgences largely goes away. Unfortunately, I think this number for me is at least $8MM :(
However, I'd still be weary of my new 4x4 Mercedes Sprinter Van being scratched and I only paid $45k for that new. However, there are benefits to parking in a secured garage in manhattan haha.
The dealers make most of their profit on the financing. If you walk in and let them know you won't be borrowing any money they treat you like shit. This and other things (registration period = we have your cash, you don't have the title) are why I don't buy cars from dealers.
Well, if they make most of their profit on financing, a cash purchase would be lower. That has also been my experience. I think you accidentally made a mistake in the wording of your post.
> Well, if they make most of their profit on financing, a cash purchase would be lower.
Er, no. They need to make a profit. If they don't get some profit kicked back from the bank as part of the financing package they need to raise the purchase price in order to preserve that level of profit.
You can't buy a car for the "financed price" without financing. You have to pay the higher "cash price". The whole "bargaining and negotiating" dance that car dealers do is simply to hide the fact that there are two different prices.
The total price of a financed purchase includes the cost of the finance charge, down payment and amount financed. You are conflating the price to the buyer with the sticker price.
You can buy the car for the car, or as a display of wealth. This is independent of having wealth to spare.
If you do have plenty of wealth to spare, maybe you don't worry about dents. Just tell your people that you spotted a dent, and they'll get the car fixed or replaced.
Being nervous about dents isn't great for displaying wealth. It's better to park on a busy street in San Francisco, right next to a tent city where people have set up shop selling car parts. That shows everybody you don't worry about the money.
I would consider myself pretty lonely, and I do have a very prominent inner monologue. A normal day I have dozens of imagined debates, presentations or conversations on varying topics. Some particular topics have been on the docket for years at a time, before enacting them in real life (finally clearing them away).
The intensity seems to vary based on my mood and wether I'm alone. I went on a week long roadtrip with some friends, and realised after a day or two that I wasn't thinking nearly as much. It was as if I couldn't. Even if I wasn't with them for a few hours. My regular dark hole of "I'll just work for 50 years and then die alone" was not accessible, even if I tried.
I've also had almost the same exact feeling when on a pretty strong acid trip, not being able to hear my inner monologue. That time it was more scary, but also really interesting and relaxing. Microdosing LSD brought most of that feeling back (not sure if placebo though), making me more focused and less sad.
I'm guessing getting to that state is a part of what mediation is all about, but I haven't really figured that out yet.
I’m on the autism spectrum and I harness this ability to have conversations in my mind to improve my social interactions. I simulate all kinds of permutations of events and branches of conversations. When I get the chance some of these get tested in the real world and the information I gather from that is fed in to my next round of simulations. Ten years ago I couldn’t socialise at all. Now I can pass as normal in a lot of different situations. I think I’ve managed to build up some kind of subconscious model of how other people work.
Even when I’m not actively doing this, my thoughts take the form of conversations.
Ditto for my partner. She is constantly doing exactly what you described, and has diagnosed ASD.
I wouldn't say her inner dialogue is centered reminiscing or longing, which is what the article mentions in this study about those who are lonely; more so she's constantly running a post mortem on every social interaction she remembers to build a more robust "model" about how people work.
Before she was diagnosed, this tended to veer more towards paranoia and constant second guessing of herself, and often resulted in a feeling of loneliness.
Post diagnosis she is much more comfortable with these thoughts, and has used mindfulness practice as a means to stop herself from obsessing when it goes a little too far.
I've realized that the inner monologue does get in the way of me actually following through on intentions, and socializing does cure it, but also, social contact doesn't naturally lead to the conversations I want to have, which causes that buildup of rumination you speak of.
The thing that has helped me most with this kind of persistent rumination is to vocalise it out loud. I just use the recorder app on my phone as a "rubber duck". I say something out loud, and it's like it's been cleared out. I didn't need to address another person. Then when I do have the conversation, I'm in control of myself: the topics I bring up are more deliberate and purposeful, because I don't have a backlog to clear, and I often have my ideas prepared in articulated form, so I am a more engaging conversation partner.
This all sounds very familiar, the same inner monologue, imagined interaction later, unfortunate fear and the suppression of those thoughts/ fears on the occasion I do get to do something.
I’ve had a bit of a different experience on psychedelics though. They’ve tended to explode those fears but vomit them up in a way that makes me reflect on them that I would normally subconsciously suppress. Not a very pleasant experience, but incredibly interesting, but due to other side effects I rarely try it.
I'm super curious, could you explain more what kind of experience you had where you couldn't hear your inner monologue? Were you unable to access the inner voice at all, or somehow unable to think in words at all?
I'm not familiar with meditation, though I've always been able to blank out my thoughts for a little while. But that's never been my experience on acid, I can hardly stop the racing thoughts for a few seconds!
It's obviously hard to describe, but yes, I had a very hard time thinking in words, but simultaneously I also had intermittently very racing thoughts. But as an example, imagine you're sitting home alone deciding what to eat for dinner. I have quite a verbose thought process where I almost pose questions and answer them to myself, like "Pizza? Naah, I had it yesterday, and it's quite fattening, I haven't worked out all week, I should get a sallad instead".
That was totally impossible to do. I could speak those things out aloud, but I couldn't really do them inside my head. If someone asked me a question, I couldn't prepare an answer in my mind before speaking. And those existentially depressing places my thoguths sometimes goes to were also not accessible.
I expressed it to those around me as "I can't think", which was obviously not completely true, but I think I was so focused/grounded in the pretty overwhelming experience that my mind couldn't really waste CPU cycles on wandering or evaluating what the best answer was to a question.
Do you always have a monologe going on? Say you now put down your phone or close your laptop and just stare out of your head and look at what's in front of you.
Will you have linguistically formulated sentences "coming to you" without pause?
I pretty much do. It's not entirely without pause, any sort of flow state will completely usurp it, and I can definitely zone out, but both of those situations are noticeably outside the norm.
Notably, when I'm my loosest and "most authentic" socially, it just feels like the inner voice is speaking directly out, whereas most times it's more like the inner voice is giving instructions to a much less verbose underling.
I too have a very prominent inner monologue, it went away for the first time when i tripped with acid, I think meditation is will give me the same effect but i don't know how to start that habit, every time i try, it works for a minute or two and then its back. When the inner monologue shut up i was so pleased, but a concern i have is its impact on creativity.
When I was younger I couldn't stand loneliness. I couldn't stand staying in on Friday night. Fear of missing out, even if I didn't even know what was I exactly missing out would burn too strong.
Now in my 30s I love being alone. I can even go camping by myself in the wilderness alone, or hit a bar (pre-covid of course) by myself and not only be happy that way, but prefer it too. Sometimes I would go out by myself a few hours beforehand before meeting up with friends, to get that "I am doing things alone" fix.
I am not sure what changed and I became this way. I didn't work towards it or strive for it, I just grew older I guess. So I came up with a theory. Not even a theory, more like an opinion...
That when we are younger we rely on society to survive. Without a support cycle, the elements will overtake us, and our animalistic instincts light up. Our identity is tied to our social circle.
But as we get more confident and more comfortable with who we are, that deep fear of loneliness decreases. I am more alone now but less lonely.
I'm going to be 43 in a day, and I have definitely noticed less reliance on others for validation or meaning as I grow older. I think it's normal.
When you're younger, you're trying to figure out who you are and a big part of it is seeking out new people to learn about the world and yourself. I think you also tend to need others to validate you more. I can definitely tell that when I was younger I would share more about my hobbies or interests with others in the hopes that they would like them too and want to share in them with me, with a little bit of wanting to be complimented on my uniqueness. Now that I'm older, I do that far less.
A weird thing happened as I hit my late 30s. The best way I can describe it is 'acceptance'. I accept who I am, at my core, is defined by my genes, my experiences, and my experiences' affect on my genes. I used to think that if I just tried hard enough, I could be different. I could be cooler, more attractive, etc. Now? I simply accept that I am simply not compatible with some people, and that's ok.
I know that sounds like some sort of cringe hallmark card. I know I completely dismissed that sort of sentiment when I was younger, but as I've gotten older, I've found it rings more true.
As a 24 y/o who struggled with forming meaningful friendships in my teen years, your comment as someone in their 40s was soothing.
I'd like to reach that stage of life where I internalize the fact that other's validation doesn't matter as much as I think it does.
I completely and wholly understand -- intellectually -- that other folks opinion and/or attention toward me shouldn't have an impact on my self-esteem and well-being (and just like many others, I've even read whole books on this very topic), but putting it into practice has been a struggle and I find it super hard to fight against the in-built and well-oiled 'validation seeking' neural circuitry up in my head.
There are also other factors at play. I don't necessarily think that age alone has that influence. What about the increased network connectivity we have around us and the plethora of devices which carry that data? We're finding our validation through sites like HN instead of finding a human who shares our interests.
I camp in the wilderness with friends pretty often and thought it would be fun to try doing it alone once. I didn't sleep at all, I kept imagining terrible things in the night coming to get me.
A few months ago, I took an overnight trip out to the woods by myself. I slept in the bed of my truck on an abandoned forestry road somewhat deep into a state forest. I went with no pre-planned destination so I just turned onto unpaved forestry roads randomly until I eventually got to a quiet dead end that petered out. My wife knew the state forest I was in, but no one on Earth had a more precise location for me than that.
It was a little nervewracking and spooky even though in truth I was only about a twenty minute drive from the edge of the park and civilization. To know that if I slipped and broke a leg or something I'd be screwed for a couple of days until a crew could find me.
But I experienced it as a good kind of anxiety. I deliberately wanted to get outside of my comfort zone and spend a little time getting comfortable with being uncomfortable. It was an absolutely rewarding experience and one of the highlights of 2020 for me. I woke up the next morning refreshed, centered, and excited to return home to my family.
A quote I think about a lot is J. A. Shedd's, "A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for."
I have the ACR ResQLink 400. Can't exactly "recommend" since I haven't used mine (they're single use only), but I researched this a bit before buying.
Just make sure you get one that uses 406Mhz rather than two-way LEO satellites. The two-way stuff requires monthly payments and is far less reliable, won't get through forest canopy. The 406Mhz SARSAT beacons are single use only one-way transmitters (they receive GPS, not 406Mhz-SARSAT, although they still work without a GPS signal). Anything that advertises using it to send SMS messages is junk for emergency use.
There's an older, lower-frequency SARSAT band somewhere in the 150mhz-ish range, but it gets so many false positives (like some ATM in Kansas) that it's basically retired. The 406Mhz protocol has a lot more checksums in it.
From some reading I've done, it seems the type of device I'd want is a PLB and not a EPIRB (which you register to a vessel?) It also says PLBs you'd register to yourself and have to update every 2 years - but some articles I've seen say you can use them more than once. (source: https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/personal-locator-bea...) How much of this is accurate?
Well, they both use the same satellites and radio signals. It's the same electronics in different packaging.
Speaking of packaging, the product you linked to is the buoyant version. Don't get that for hiking, it's significantly larger (physically) than the non-buoyant one. Confusingly, they are both called the "ResQLink 400".
Solo backpacking (i.e. in the backcountry, not campgrounds) is a very different experience than with friends. The first time I did a longer trip (6 days) solo, I was terrified for the first 24 hours, but then eased into it and ended up having a really good experience. It can be intense, though. Even after the fear passes, other strong emotions might come up. Overall I prefer going with friends but I'm glad I've done some long solo trips too.
In 2019 I went on a solo biketour and it involved a lot of nigths in a tent. While campgrounds were rather cosy as just the knowledge that others are there brought me comfort, some wildcamping spots were much more unsettling. For me it was a fear of the wilderness and just hearing some noises in the middle of the night was... tense. Such nights were usually on high alert and quite restless.
I wonder if those type of fears are something we grow out of with age, or if something else is going on there.
I really don't understand what's behind those types of irrational fears. Some nights I can't even walk from the kitchen to the bathroom without turning the light on in the corridor. I know there's nothing behind the corner, just like I'm sure you knew there were no "terrible things in the night coming to get you", yet I must turn on the light
When I was a kid, I used to think that adults are not afraid of the dark because they are adults. I'm almost 30 now, and I often wonder if I never really became an adult that's never afraid of the dark.
I bet if I did a few days in the wilderness my need for sleep would overcome the perceived need for vigilance, and I'd probably start sleeping better.
I think there's some kind of psychological/physiological feedback loop that goes on in those moments at night where you feel compelled to run to the door or switch the lights on or whatever. Sometimes rationality just doesn't help.
I think fear of the dark isn’t so much childish but rather an antagonistic imagination that triggers your own flight response kind of like a panic attack’s negative feedback loop divorced from any idea that you were in danger.
I have a fear of the dark, for lack of a better term. I can put myself in the shoes of characters in horror movies and feel their fear. Meanwhile my girlfriend is incapable of it. Not because I somehow believe in things that go bump in the night (I don’t) and she doesn’t, but rather it’s some sort of mental quirk that she doesn’t experience.
I’ve embraced it, though. Whenever I’m doing something like solo camping or running through the woods at night, I like to enumerate terrifying scenarios and then when I get home, jot them into my notes app and sometimes stub them out into short stories that I submit to those scary story youtube channels or r/nosleep.
Anyways, I’ve thought a lot about why I would have this fear reflex while others don’t. Doesn’t seem to be much explanation. I’m in my thirties. Embrace the thrill.
To riff on your hypothesis in a totally speculative way, perhaps when we are younger we have "more" to give and take from communities. It would be evolutionarily adaptive for this to be primary focus, then. But as we age, we have less to give and take, and so it is no longer as adaptive. Just like when we are younger, we explore more, but as we age, we exploit more. Alas, I speculate!
Ha, I love your hypothesis btw! Because I came from the "I am older and know myself better"-angle, and you from the "it's nature's way of telling me I should move towards the sidelines, making way for new" (paraphrasing of course, no offense). It's a humbling concept. So pretty interesting to think about. Maybe there is a bit of both!
I think youth is way more influenced by fear than necessary. Age just give you enough data to know that there was nothing there worth much.
I even believe that midlife crisis is a 2nd phase of the same issue. You run after the job market trusting the laws, seeking success.. and after 20 years of seeing what a mess it is you just can't avoid jolting back to your natural needs.
I am in my mid 20's and I am experiencing what you describe as the fear of missing out. I will do whatever I can to hang out with friends to have fun and enjoy my time, even if that means when some people think it isn't worth it. (either money wise or time wise)
You saying this gives me some kind of weird feeling of knowing that it will probably get less in the future. I don't mind the feeling now and it keeps my on my feet and makes me do things, but I don't think I'd want to keep this feeling when I'm approaching the 40s.
Since the last few weeks, I have been having a lot of imaginary conversations with my friends. Sometimes I actually tend to act them out: for example nodding my head every now and then or lip syncing. Or that I am usually awake for an hour while in bed because I cannot end the imaginary conversation. Is it normal to have these conversations all the time?
Yes, what you described is normal. I do it quite a lot myself, especially if I am...
- replaying some sort of argument/confrontation or other high-stakes conversation from earlier in the day (simulating ways the conversation could have gone better--the best zingers are the ones you come up with in bed at night).
- preparing for an important presentation or meeting the next day (informal rehearsal).
- out hiking alone (especially longer solo backpacking trips). Without fresh content bombarding my brain, I tend to dwell on the same ideas/conversations.
- reading a particularly engrossing book, and get into a character from their point of view.
- studying something new, then I imagine myself tutoring someone else on the subject (my go-to learning technique).
Now if you find yourself having conversations that you were convinced are real at the time, but it later dawns on you that it never actually happened, then that might be something to talk (for real) to someone about.
For what it's worth, it may actually be healthier to not do these, particularly 1 and 3. You may be ruminating, and ruminating is not good for you - it can tire you, agitate you, cause you anxiety; also, you end up being in your thoughts and not in the moment (e.g. when hiking).
It is fine and good if you are doing it with purpose (e.g. tutoring someone else in your mind to understand something better, or trying to work out some problem that has a solution), but bad if you are trying to solve something unsolvable, dwelling on the past or worrying about the future, or just wasting your own CPU cycles.
This is something you can practice as part of mindfulness practice - getting spontaneous awareness that you are engaging in an unproductive internal dialogue and letting it go. Not fight it or stop it, but just let the thoughts come and go without engaging with them.
Good points, #1 can become especially loopy for me (my fight or flight response is jacked up to 11) to the point of being bothersome. When I notice it veering into unhealthy territory, I try to use mindfulness techniques to reel it in. Still, it's "normal" in that it's not indicative of mental illness other than maybe social anxiety.
But I disagree slightly on #3. My frame of reference is thru-hiking and/or intense solo missions where I'm alone in the backcountry hiking for 10-14 hours a day for days on end. In that setting, I find it impossible to stay mindful continuously. Also, without news/email/social media/etc. as input, I just find that my mind gravitates towards internal dialogues about the same big picture life issues. In that state, I'm actually listening to my body and mind more, not less. Personally, it can be frustrating to worry about whether I'm "in the moment" enough (the quintessential frustration with mindfulness, I know).
That said, I do try to mix it up between fully immersing myself in the wonderment of the wilderness, letting my mind chew on ideas, listening to podcasts/music, and sometimes attempting actual meditation sessions.
Reading this whole thread makes me wonder if such internal dialogue is correlated with a sensitive fight or flight response (on which I can also relate) and anxiety. When I practice daily meditation, limit my computer/phone/internet usage, I find that both tend to subside, so maybe there is something to it, although the cause and effect could all be tangled up here.
One definitely should not be frustrated or worrying about being in the moment! I agree that it is all normal in the sense that one shouldn't be worrying about any of these habits. It's just that for me it was a revelation when after many many years I realized that I do not have to have/follow internal dialogues and that they may actually causing me tension and anxiety.
The go-to resource that is usually suggested is The Mind Illuminated by John Yates. I found it to be a very nice tutorial-like guide to meditation with hardly any spiritual/religious bullshit, and it breaks it down into stages so you get some idea of where you are at and what progress you are making (even though progress is not really something you should be focusing on with this).
The introductory course on the Headspace app I also found good but I think it is better to not stay on it beyond that.
If your thoughts keep you awake sometimes I think you would definitely benefit greatly from this.
I suppose bottling it up is not actually letting it go. If something bothers you on an intellectual level it will probably keep coming back and you need to resolve it. It's just that ruminating is not helpful in any case. It gives you an illusion of 'working on a problem' without actually doing anything useful.
The tutoring someone part is so relatable considering that I am in university and usually have these conversations after I learn some difficult concept.
This is very much a description of the modes I operate in! And I get very high levels of engagement with myself. My thoughts actually distract me a lot from real life verbal conversations as well. People think I'm not all there and I don't listen well, but in fact I'm just at a different wavelength and processing speed....
I can't give you any statistical evidence but at least anecdotal, I do tend to have a fair amount of imaginary conversations and often verbalize my half of them - and this includes hand gestures and head nods.
At one point I tried to cease this behavior because I had a perception it was negative, but I actually found my ability to be prepared for real conversations declined as well, so I've re-engaged the behavior. Visualization and behavioral rehearsal is something I've had several instructors for various things (weightlifting, target shooting, etc) encourage and at least for me it has panned out.
I think this might be common in people who are generally socially anxious. TBH, this helps me in my social conversations too as I think of jokes the day before I have a talk with my friends. But this has increased in the recent weeks and I am concerned whether it is "normal" or not.
Another poster pointed this out and they were quite correct, despite downvotes - "normality" isn't a goal. Normal is a section of the bellcurve and fitting into that curve isn't supposed to be a goal, it's just descriptive of a larger group.
The question should really be "does X behavior cause any problems in my life?" If it doesn't cause you problems then you're good, and if it does, then you should look to alleviate those problems (whether that's modifying the behavior or the situation). If playing out social situations does alleviate the anxiety and your only downside is sometimes the people in your house give you funny looks - well that's probably a worthwhile tradeoff. On the other hand, if the behavior is aggravating social anxiety, then it's worth talking to someone about.
Social anxiety falls under the generalized anxiety tree, and most people do feel some anxiety in social situations - but if it's disruptive to your life then it may be worth chatting with a therapist with. Most therapists are going to try and identify the specific causes and then give you tools to alleviate those feelings.
"Although these might have seemed off the cuff and spontaneous, they were generally carefully rehearsed, words carefully selected for punning potential, stored in his prodigious memory and then released on their unsuspecting recipient at the right moment"
I concur with this comment about social anxiety. After incorporating some mindfulness meditation into my daily routine, I have noticed a stark decline in how much I replay conversations (as per another comment here) and how much I rehearse potential future conversations (which never go the way you rehearse! Off topic: Mike Tyson’s quote is good here: “Everyone’s got a plan until they get punched in the face.”). I think both of these acts (past rumination and future rehearsal) are big parts of social anxiety that lessen with mindfulness.
As for having imaginary conversations with real people I know that are neither repeats of past conversations nor rehearsals of future conversations, I think there may have been a slight decline but I didn’t do a ton of this prior.
TL;DR: I think mindfulness meditation helps with this.
I do this. Sometimes it's in preparation for a conversation I know I'm going to have soon. Sometimes it's just because someone's on my mind and maybe I have things I want to say to them but don't currently have the opportunity to. I don't know if it's bad. But I don't like that I do it. And I wish I did it less.
I have had similar imaginary conversations like yours. But I am concerned because these conversations run in my mind for like several hours, even when I'm writing code.
You can talk to yourself out loud as if you were doing a screencast about whatever you're working on. Should override background verbal thinking. There are some positive correlations between self-talk and performance too, shouldn't hurt.
I do this since I was a child. Not only do I imagine conversations, but also all kinds of interactions, including giving speeches, playing chess, fighting, etc.
My mouth and hands will move in accordance with those imaginations.
Absolutely me too. Especially the debates and speeches. It's actually very useful. I actually talk out loud. I don't talk out load what my debater/opponent is saying, that happens in my head!
I have found a solution to sleeping. I put on a familiar tv show on my phone, face the phone down so I'm only listening to it (with comfy soft earphones), and I pass right out.
No more difficulty falling asleep. It has gotten me thru a very stressful time.
They're way too interesting and funny for me to sleep to (partly I get annoyed as I want a conversation on the topics)!
I have anxiety, somewhat, I need the right level of engagement but not too much interest then I can fall asleep. Rick & Morty, Brookly 99 do it for me - just enough to keep my mind from wandering, not enough to keep me awake.
I experienced this when I lived abroad. I moved to a new country for work and didn't know anyone or speak the language well at that point. This was before the internet enabled instant communication around the world, and my new timezone was on the opposite side of the planet from my home country, so I couldn't make phone calls to family without making a plan.
In any case, for the first month or so before I started my job, I was totally alone in my apartment and didn't have any conversations in my native language (English) the whole time. I began to have imaginary conversations with loved ones, both in dreams and in waking life, very much like the kind you describe.
I am one who has always been introverted and ok being alone, but this was an extremely disorienting experience. I coped by keeping a journal. The upside was that I eventually developed an ability to not feel lonely even while alone for long periods.
I don't think if it is normal but I have imaginary conversations with friends for long time and before that I used to have conversations with imaginary friends. I also have normal talk with friends every once in a while. The way I see is that these imaginary conversations drastically reduce my needs to actually talk to people. Also IMO once I have has enough conversations with people I pretty much know what they will talk about next time in general unless they have some personal news to deliver. So in Claude Shannon's sense total information content is very low and I do not even find them funny to continue talking.
Now it all may be odd sounding thing but it seems okay for me as I do not look to confirm to any group nor looking for anyone to confirm to my ideas.
Same here. I got "caught" recently. They said "You were just talking to yourself out load". I said: "Yeah, I do that. Nothing wrong about that! It's actually very useful."
The concept of "normality" is kind of psychologically illiterate. What's worth asking is whether something's problematic or not, and the not being able to sleep part sounds like it might be problematic.
I talk to myself constantly, which always puts me to sleep, so in that case it's useful.
I have DID, and one of the ways I ended up communicating with myself was through imagined friend contact.
This really sounds like you have a dissociative spectrum symptom. Up to 1 in 12 people are at the very least at the OSDD-1b spectrum, down to 1 in 100ish and > with DID, so it's super common.
Most people don't know they're systems, but usually it involves a lot of talking to one's self, having a lot of very distinct "modes", certain kinds of memory issues/weird amnesia/short term stuff, the ability/feeling like you could be really good friends with yourself (alternately, the ability to deeply hate yourself as well), and being able to go from having an amazing day to absolute raw terror, not even recognizing it because of emotional amnesia.
So yes, it is normal, and this sounds very system-ey. If you are a system, don't pass over this! Discovering your dissociative spectrum tendencies, if you have them, is very hard and requires a lot of effort, but it is a transition that is very significantly life-changing, in a very positive direction.
The most important thing is that if your identity is fragmented, most people only focus on meeting the needs/listening to the people near the front of the brain/consciousness, so the younger alters/personality states/people/etc. get ignored and there's always anxiety and never-ending loops of feeling a desperate need for something but not getting it (because communication between people in the brain -- and yes, they are individual people! you can share multiple people in a brain, it's just like your body is more of a mech than anything else -- is usually completely cut off with DID and vastly inhibited with dissociative spectrum disorders, but the emotions eventually build up under pressure and finally leak out there.)
As far as I can tell, nothing is said in the article or in the paper about causality.
The researchers suggest that lonely people's thoughts are directed inwards due to a lack of social experiences, and this is what alters the brain. But I wonder how many people just have brains like this, and feel lonely as a consequence?
Yes, I would have liked to see data on the subject's marital/relationship status, for example. Completely anecdotally, but all of the people I know in real life who I consider to be lonely based on social cues and interactions are either widows, widowers, maids or bachelors, and I could tell all of them longed for regular meaningful interaction with a partner...
There might be a few cases where loneliness is "caused" by a problem in the brain, but I would wager the vast majority of cases are caused by what I described above - lack of regular meaningful interaction with a partner over an extended period.
I can attest that I am wittier and verbally "quicker" when in a relationship or have more friends. In those cases even when I happen to be alone, I notice things to comment on, and can always find something to say. It's like... how will I remember all these interesting things I've seen or have happened to me and will want to tell my friends or girlfriend.
When I'm single and without many friends around, I rather just slide past life. I don't latch onto interesting stuff as much. I have my thought processes and goals and since nobody asks how my day was, there's no point in remembering minor inconsequential stuff. But as you don't need to remember them, you don't even notice them. Like even a mundane task of taking a package to the post will be more of an emotional adventurous roller coaster when I have people in my life and rather a goal-directed straightforward thing when not.
I am a proponent of the theory that our self-perception and consciousness necessarily require others to exist. (More or less, a result of map-building recursion: my brain constructs a map/model of you, which includes my model of your model of me, which includes my model of your model of my model… and eventually a detailed enough concept of “I” emerges.)
In other words, assuming that holds, there can’t be “I” if there’s no one else.
With that theory in mind, when I experience this “sliding past life” (quite an apt analogy), I actually see it as evidence of myself in some ways becoming less conscious, or at least less self-aware.
It’d seem that some don’t experience such a contrast between being social and being alone; I suspect it could be because these maps their minds build have more “inertia” and are used in absence of the “territory” for longer. In a way that must be a nice feature, though on the other hand this might imply that such models aren’t as tightly coupled to reality.
Have you ever talked to a lonely person and they talk a lot and do subtle things to try to get you to stay a bit longer (like offering you snacks and drinks and whatnot)? Those are the social cues I'm talking about.
Off topic but there's something to be said about using memes to express a point concisely. It would take a few dozen words to express what your second link does surprisingly efficiently. It's a weird new kind of language compression.
Found this to be extremely helpful for PR-reviews; I have sometimes difficulties when writing sentences in order to not come across too harsh/snarky/negative etc., but with GIFs/pictures, it's easy to involve some humor while still bringing the point across.
Also see emojis and at a better but more niche example, twitch emotes where, for example, a selection of happy looking emotes may differentiate between a range of emotional descriptions of good/happy. It's a form of language.
This resonates with me as someone that spends a lot of time alone. I also find that I tend to view social interactions that I do have as more significant than the others involved if they're not also loners. I have to remember that most people go to lunch with others, have small gatherings, etc fairly often (outside the pandemic times). It's not generally as memorable or significant to them. I'll think back fondly on an evening dinner party and remember every detail, friends that go to such things every weekend remember them less significantly. I also sometimes think of people I haven't spoken to in a long time as still being relevant to me, and have to remember they likely don't think of me at all - I don't mean that in a self deprecating or sad way. It's been a good thing to be aware of, sometimes someone will cross my mind and I'll do a sort of social inventory and file them away as "dormant" lol
This was one of the most validating things I’ve read lately. I am normally extremely outgoing and due to current circumstances I’m more or less a shut in. I’ve been acting out in my brain social interactions. Despite actively chatting and calling people with my friends who are in relationships or quarantined with family, they have trouble following what in my current mental state makes sense. It’s happened at work as well, which is remote right now, and I was actually given a call to see if I was mentally ok.
Just seeing some preliminary findings about this makes me feel so much more valid in what I’ve been going through.
The older I get the more I noticed a need for exclusion. At this point if I get a girls number, if anything is off about her I'll almost immediately delete it.
I recognize the wrong person can derail my entire life.
Took alot of pain to get to this point. It's better to few friends than those who will bring harm
Long ago I was getting evicted and the girl I was dating simply didn't want to deal with it.
I'd tell my sister to avoid any guy going though an eviction or without stable housing, likewise I don't get involved with anyone who isn't in a good situation.
And wada ya know, I'm a senior level engineer now, have had a few great relationships, and I'm in such a great place. But I also understand how fragile it all is. And with that exclusion is necessary.
I thought the husband had an entirely valid request of "Your tulpa can't be in a sexual relationship with someone else"
Obviously I don't know anything about the situation beyond what is in the podcast, but up until that point it seemed like a "my husband won't accept my quirks" type of thing.
After they read his excerpt, I was much more inclined to think she was really the one at fault for their relationship falling apart.
All I can say is I'm glad I'm not having to deal with that situation.
The one question I have is where the data comes from that constructs most of these internal experiences. Is it mainly information in near recent experiences or observations, is it an aggregate that is somewhat in relative isolation to observable 'reality' that develops over time and if so, are there objective types of experiences that promote mutation of the internal experience? Can some of those consist of more internal experiences, and if so, at what threshold does such an internal experience become a self-sustaining feed back loop?
I can't tell if I can trust this site or not, because it looks like one of those fake news site created to generate ad clicks. But I guess pretty much all the local news site look like this now. Sad state of the web we are living through.
Also interesting to note that the lead photo for loneliness in this article makes it seem all sexy and desirable.
> Also interesting to note that the lead photo for depression in this article makes it seem all sexy and desirable.
Could it be that you personally find the model sexy and desirable?
There is nothing inherently attractive about a person sitting alone in an uncomfortable chair next to an empty couch. The model even has a closed posture and is slouching, which are a nonverbal messages that indicates anxiety. Their half dressed state also indicates a depressed state.
I hadn't noticed (because I always skip pictures in articles that don't look like data visualizations), but I went back to check, and the model looks very comfortable.
They are wearing a fashionable shirt that is off a shoulder and is longer than her pants. Her pants _are_ visible, so she is not half-dressed, she is just wearing pants that are much more useful for fashion than relaxing, which makes me think she has social activities planned. We also get a fairly large portion of the room in the shot, and it looks expensive and well-cleaned.
Again, I didn't notice this at all, but I do not think the poster is projecting at all, just reading into different cues.
To me, those are women in "pyjamas" lounging in an empty apartment, lost in deep thoughts. The composition of the photo is cold, with hues of blue and the model is centered in the frame. They appear homesick or nostalgic. I doubt that the artist aimed to show comfort and happiness.
The only time I would wear such clothings (big warm socks, a pair of boyshorts and a long shirt) is when I am not expecting any company and when I'm not expecting to go outside. Going outside would require changing socks, putting pants on and wearing a shirt that is not transparent.
I agree that they are glamorous, but aren't big empty apartments the loneliest?
Beauty is subjective, but I'd bet that the majority finds the model pleasing to the eye. Generally, for subjective things, consensus is the true evaluation.
Hey, young fellow. Your chances are probably better than you think, if my experience is any indication, but your approach may be way off.
1) Start lifting weights. Helps boost your confidence and your T levels, making you more attractive.
2) If you do not yet practice the rudiments of grooming, do so. Shower every day, shave, comb your hair. Make sure your clothes are clean and you don't smell.
3) The key to engaging with women is: when you encounter a new one, always be kind to her and treat her with the basic amount of courtesy and respect due another human being but no more. Avoid fawning over her, no matter how cute or hot you find her. Keep it in the back of your brain that she's just a woman, just a human, and may be as messed up as you are if not more so. Hold the door open for her, help her load her groceries, or whatever -- then disengage. If you get a smile or thank you, savor it. A smile or thank you from a pretty girl is a tiny gift, and we accept gifts graciously and appreciatively without hoping for more.
It's kind of this weird tension. You can't give off "looking for a date" vibes. If a girl is to any extent cute she will know it, and she will be able to use that to control the interaction if you seem too desperate. The vibe to cultivate is basically pleasant, but somewhat aloof. Make her feel like she has to work to prove herself to you. If she's at all interested, she will put in the work. You've gotta do this with multiple women, keeping them in your friend circle while not giving off thar you want to get closer -- that is not until they signal they want the same (and they will in unambiguous terms!). And it may take years to get there. Anyone who tells you finding a good partner is quick or easy is selling something.
"When you encounter a stranger, be pleasant but aloof. Disengage."
To
"Keep women in your friends circle"
Without mentioning how to get from A to B. I mean, how to actually befriending them in the first place, which is probably one of the biggest hurdles and stumbling blocks for most people here who have the same problem.
I.e. Women who are single, available and are my friends are represented by the empty set.
Asking your non-single friends to introduce you to single friends doesn't accomplish anything, since they might talk about doing that, but it'll never happen (I've seen it multiple times)
That was the case even when I was going out regularly, before the pandemic... Since unfortunately most of my social interactions are in groups heavily biased towards male representation.
The only way around that, as I recognize... Is to get different hobbies. But it's not that simple to get yourself to start liking a new thing (and spend multiple hours every week on that!) If you have
1 - A job draining most of your energy
2 - already happily spending time on hobbies that you enjoy.
"Thankfully" the pandemic solved the gender bias problem regarding the friends that I regularly meet... Since now all in-person friend interaction over several months can be counted on your fingers
(Btw, now I'm in a LDR... Which is definitely not ideal, but at least helps a lot with loneliness)
Well, I can't over state how reassuring this sounds. My perspective is warped by social media, and even though I stopped using them (to a certain extent) A brief foray into someone's feed is enough to leave me depressed for the day.
That's another thing: SM is BS. The smiles, the #BestLife, the couples vacation posts all about how #blessed they are to have each other... all of those are masking deeply unfulfilled people and failing relationships about half the time, give or take. A lot of them are just straight up narcissism -- roleplaying at having everything to an audience.
I talk to myself almost daily. This is very beneficial. I am not an introvert, neither am I "mental". There's always some debate or presentation going on. Sometimes I'm singing in front of a 50k-person audience. Doing this actually makes me super-confident in real life. I basically simulate "stage-fright", as well as rebuttals to common arguments; and in real-life, I have no stage freight, and I have great rebuttals!
I call this "pre-stressing". Similar to how concerete is pre-stressed. "It is substantially prestressed during production, in a manner that strengthens it against tensile forces which will exist when in service.". See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestressed_concrete.
> This network is responsible for a wide range of mental processes that take place when the brain is at rest. These processes are often referred to as the “inner voice”, or the “self.”
Now I am wondering if my "aphantasia" also explains why I rarely feel lonely.
Could it be that people who are able to see and hear their friends in their mind are more likely to miss them?
From introspection alone, I think that people that rarely feel lonely are that way because they have a richer imagination or "inner world". Does your aphantasia prevent you from day-dreaming, for instance?
I would be curious to know if "lone wolves" exhibit the same brain features as those who feel alone (which would suggest that they are actually lying to themselves?) or if they exhibit different features, or if they are the same as people who can feel lonely but don't because they are "socially satisfied".
> Does your aphantasia prevent you from day-dreaming, for instance?
I can "day-think" aka get lost in logical thoughts. I don't have the inner voice either, so it's less like reading a text and somewhat more like reading code. No narration, just a stream of... invisible "variables". It's hard to explain without having experienced what other people see or hear, I have no point of reference.
I also have the bad habit of forgetting people.
"Out of sight, out of mind", except I do have object persistence. I imagine it is easier to randomly think about someone when you can hear or see them at will.
To be honest, Pen & Paper games have lost their appeal now that I know I'm the only one at the table not seeing anything.
Same for authors who write lengthy descriptions of environments and characters in books. I just figured that some people enjoyed to keeping notes of the descriptions -- architects maybe. I always skipped them.
On the opposite of that, VR is really amazing. Being able to keep my VR headset just above my eyes and look into an imaginary world at the same time as the real one? Simply mind blowing. I guess that's how people feel when they picture things.
You could try looking through an unplugged VR headset. You would see how I feel without any images!
> Would you estimate that you have less periods of feeling nostalgia, for you cannot picture your childhood home?
I think so. I barely remember anything from my childhood. I experience nostalgia but probably less of it. For example, smelling garlic bread will make me think of my childhood home that was next to an italian restaurant. I can also perfectly remember the layout of the building. I remember the fear I had one day as there was no electricity and I had to climb 4 flights of stairs in pitch black. But I can't see any of it. I can't see what my grandmother used to look like. In a strange happenstance, I remember she looked a bit like the queen does on the $20 paper bills so I often get nostalgia by handling money. She did not look identical, but had enough "variables" that were identical for my mind to "confuse" or "link" the two, in a way. I know that when I was a child, I would confuse my parents or teachers with characters seen on TV.
> Would you estimate that you have less periods of feeling cringe, for you cannot re-play an embarrassing conversation in your mind?
Actually, I can remember conversations. I simply cannot hear them or see them. I still have the text transcript of it silently playback into my memory, bringing back conversations in my short term memory and allowing me to relive them. It's more like instinctively knowing, the same way you know 4+4=8 without imagining two bundles of four sticks. The only sound I can produce in my head is my own voice, so sometimes I will "talk" with someone else anyway. It is identical to how it would look to see me read outloud the dialogues for two characters. I have been told that people can even hear musical instrument... all I can do it focus hard and reproduce the noise of the instrument with my voice. So it just sound like acapella done by someone with no music talent.
To answer your question, I rarely have issues falling asleep. I do have memories of times where I was a teen and would struggle to fall asleep because I would think back on what happened at school. But it was a rare occurrence.
> Now the spicy, Ethical question. Would you estimate that you have less periods of feeling remorse for your actions?
Yes. I feel as if it has taken me more time than others to reach certain developmental milestones. Now that I am an adult, I have those remorse. I can think about how doing X would trigger Y and make someone feel like Z. It's like a huge mindmap. But before being able to juggle so many concepts, events and variables? I wondered for a long time if I might be a sociopath. Turns out I simply needed to learn all of those concepts from a different perspective. Like a left handed person trying to learn to write by attempting to mimic a right handed person.
To provide one datapoint, I think I've got a pretty strong imagination. For example, if I get into a book or story, at some point it's like I stop "reading" and start "watching" it unfold. I day dream a lot. I've got an internal monologue running almost constantly while awake. But I'm definitely a hermit, and I never feel lonely.
I've been working remotely since March and not seen anybody socially since December last year, and frankly it's been great. In a normal year I only meet up with my friends once or twice anyway.
Hmm, I'm a very lonely person [1] and have a cat, but I never thought of a back story for my cat, nor have I seen anyone with this. Can you give an example from pop culture?
[1] (I saw my friends a grand total of 4 times in 2020, pandemic has been awful for my mental health lmfao)
Not pop culture, but we were bored one day years ago and came up with a story about our cats being the proprietors of a hash bar on a flying ship of adventurers where they dressed and talked like 1920's mobsters running a speakeasy.
I made a back story for my dog. My newfie loved to inspect things. I'd come home with groceries. If I let her inspect (look & sniff) each bag, she'd be thrilled. When she'd find an interesting smell, she'd investigate it thoroughly. Would keep going long after the other dogs gave up.
She also loved keeping things in order. She didn't like it when the other cats and dogs would sometimes be chaotic. And she had some sort of code involving behavior: she was never selfish. If another cat or dog was already on her favorite pillow or eating her favorite snack, she'd let them have it. But if someone tried to cheat her or blatantly take something of hers, she'd react with growls and barks. She was clearly lawful good.
So we made up a long backstory. She was once a cop. Spent a lot of years street patrolling and getting to know everyone in her neighborhood. She was well liked, even by the street criminals. She was always fair to everyone she met. Even those who would not return fairness to her.
This all paid off. She eventually made detective. She was good investigating things. But something happened. She was backstabbed by corrupt people on the force. Got too close to breaking a case that would have taken down not only a major cartel, but also the cops who sold out. She was murdered.
Then reincarnated as a Newfoundland. She can't remember her past life clearly. But the desire to sniff everything out, and the desire to take care of everyone while keeping them in line, somehow persisted. She's driven to do something she doesn't completely understand, but she did it the best she could.
Her companion in life was an aussie who had a much simpler back story. She fit the manic pixie girl stereotype. Just pure chaos, pranks, and she liked stealing from and manipulating the poor newfie. They were a very odd couple: the by-the-rules ex-cop and the sarcastic girl who liked silly & mean jokes in equal proportion. But out on the trail, the aussie would put her silliness aside, and would work diligently with the newfie to solve whatever mystery they found. The typical odd couple of a modern police procedural.
I've now written multiple paragraphs about my dogs' stories. I guess that's my own way of reacting to the sheer loneliness of this year.
Kids like to make up stories and play make believe with things. In that sense I wonder why we don't see that as normal for adults to do so? I mean, if you write it down it becomes a book...
This is, essentially, how it happened with our cats. It's kind of a continuation of what happened with the pets my sister and I had growing up. We (as kids) made up stories, and our parents participated to some extent. We used to joke about making a book, "The Secret Life of Walter Kitty" (of course, someone else has done it, just checked). As adults, we just kind of continued it because, why not? It's entertaining and amusing just like any other story telling activity.
When I was living alone for a few years I would speak out my thoughts rather than in my head. That lead to having conversations with my self and then having conversations with fictional characters. I think also being alone increased anxiety and heightened sense of fear. I always wondered if this would have lead to a form of schizophrenia in the long term if I kept living alone.
I agree with the paranoia thing. I've learned to curb that with developing a mentality of "rolling with the punches, but trying to be prepared for them."
The study compared the MRI scans of people who said they “often” feel lonely with the scans of people do not report feeling that way.
This feels like a faulty approach. There is a world of difference between being alone and feeling alone. You can feel alone without being alone, for example. I am wrapping up my fifth military deployment and as such have spent a considerable amount of time actually alone compared to other adults. From numerous points of observation some adults are more capable of performing, and even possibly appreciating, time apart from other adults more than others. Some people simply cannot handle it and literally go crazy.
If the study does not account for such a foundational distinction I can’t, in good faith, consider the results valid. This distinction is hard to appreciate until you have been alone for an extended period and observed differences of performance relative to other people.
It’s not faulty at all if the study is focused on the subset of people who, as described, feel lonely. The study isn’t about you (or me), person who feels comfort from certain amounts of alone time.
Reading this again, I think it’s worth pointing out to you a couple of things:
- A lack of emotional response is just as subjective as a presence of emotional response.
- Those of us (including me) who lack common emotional responses are more likely to miss normal social cues, and thereby less likely to have objective interpretations of social scenarios.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to make objective, but if you spend lots of time alone and don’t feel lonely, and if other people spend lots or even little amounts of time alone and do feel lonely, those are objectively different emotional experiences. Why isn’t that worth understanding?
Because social anxiety, of which loneliness without consideration for being alone is a part of, is already extensively researched, even its implications on neurophysiology. Being alone and the implications of resulting loneliness is radically different and less understood. Using improper measures to confuse the former for the later is bad science.
Also note loneliness is defined here as "perceived social isolation".
To me, loneliness exists when there's a Δ between one's need for social interaction and the actual social interaction one gets. To close the gap, one can adjust either parameter or both: either lower one's expectations, or increase actual interaction, or both.
The socially well-adjusted introvert generally comes out ahead in most situations due to the ability to regulate both parameters.
> “In the absence of desired social experiences,” the authors write, “lonely individuals may be biased towards internally directed cognitions,” as if “to fill the social void.”
This sounds like a line Igor or Morgana would say in Persona 5.
The relationship between the Default Mode Network and a rich inner life seems like a reasonable enough connection, as does the relationship between DMN activity and loneliness.
What would be fascinating to me is an exploration of causality.
Can feelings of loneliness be increased by an upregulation (dTCS) of Default Mode Network activity? Can they be reduced by a downregulation? Can either of those be performed without substantially changing the subjects conscious qualia or internal states?
This will be really interesting to watch in a few years.
This is one of the most validating discussions I've read in a while. I think of myself as shy, lonely, maybe a little autistic. I grew up very alone as an only child, and would make up games or role play with myself to pass time in the evenings after school.
As I grew older, I had many poor social experiences. I felt that the social sphere was dominated by callous, insensitive jerks who talked louder, or whoever had the wittier comeback when being egged on, and I was hurt many times, and I most likely hurt others as well! I started to resent interactions with most people, thinking that most people aren't well intentioned or are unaware. I didn't want to have small talk or banter, because I was interested in random trivia and deep emotional experiences, which don't have a place in many social situations or seem to interest much people. Obviously I have also found quite a few people who were graceful in this regard, such as the few close friends I still have.
> For example, they are more likely to call up past memories and ponder future scenarios. This may be a mechanism to help them escape from their loneliness.
and
> “In the absence of desired social experiences,” the authors write, “lonely individuals may be biased towards internally directed cognitions,” as if “to fill the social void.”
I would say they have this exactly backwards. The act of conjuring up these desired scenarios while not being in such a situation 'creates' the feeling of loneliness. So the sequence as I see it is: person likes company, person has free time to ponder and imagines social situations, then feels lonely. I also recall interactions and play out future possible situations or memories. I don't however long for them, rather it's usually more analytical as what should I do if that should come to pass or what could I have done differently/better. It's not that I want to be in those situations. I do miss diversity of activity alone or socially.
A lot of the comments seem to be discussing social anxiety, which is not the same as loneliness. In my late-teens and early-20s I was extremely anxious in social situations but I did not feel lonely. Social anxiety, and the isolation that often results from it, can contribute to a person feeling lonely but the two concepts are not synonymous.
As I understand it, loneliness is a psychological state that results when a person feels deprived of meaningful contact with other humans. Very few people can maintain their sanity and well-being completely cut off from their fellow humans (the proverbial hermit living contently in the wilderness with only himself for company is a rare phenomenon) but how much and what type of social contact an individual needs to maintain their equilibrium varies wildly.
So, it is impossible to determine how lonely a given person is only by looking how much time they spend alone or how anxious they are in social situations.
Delusional coping mechanisms seem to be a pretty rampant aspect of loneliness. You see it a lot in the homeless population. But it also effects anyone who spends too much time alone.
Reminds me a lot of bush-fever, where you've been living out in the woods for so long you start to get a bit nutty. Highly recommended life experience btw.
I was a chronically lonely child/teenager and I spent several adult years where my primary social interaction was at work and online. I never lacked close friends, but I didn't see or interact with real life people that often. This article resonates with me in a very big way.
Thanks, I like to think I'm at least a decent person.
And I don't even think of it as a negative. More just a part of how I came to be who I am. I am fortunate to have several good close friends, many more warm acquaintances across the continent, and a good number of family members that I genuinely like. I just defaulted to being alone and I didn't learn how to interact with my peers in a social context until later than most.
It's interesting to consider this within the context of societal rights of passage involving extended solitude such as the walkabout in Aboriginal culture. You basically have a situation where the community invested in an activity that grew this part of the brain. I'm wondering if it also explains deification of animals in many primitive cultures where solitude was more common because there were fewer people and more opportunities for solitude.
I think loneliness is generally a negative, and I'm glad it's finally getting the scientific attention it deserves. It's especially important to heed articles like these for us computer-types, who are inclined towards working and living alone. Yes, its good to be alone to recharge, but watch for the negative signals and schedule a social activity into your day/week!
However, I sometimes find myself getting wrapped up in hypothetical, imaginary social situations (especially when lying awake in bed) - usually reacting angrily.
Every day, I think about the brilliant humans sharing their knowledge on the internet. As someone with virtually no social interaction, it's the pleasure of learning that keeps me going!
> “In the absence of desired social experiences,” the authors write, “lonely individuals may be biased towards internally directed cognitions,” as if “to fill the social void.”
At least in my experience, those "internally directed cognitions" create a level of detail in expressed ideas which attract others to converse more with me.
Did I just figure out that I'm the Kwisatz Haderach, or don't most people do this?
I really honestly think there's something to this. Playing with others in VR has such a different feeling. I was once in a game where the whole team got blown up by a grenade, and then the next game we're all friends joking and laughing with each other in the kind of way that has never happened to me in a pancake game.
Can you explain how? The study "compared the MRI scans of people who said they 'often' feel lonely with the scans of people do not report feeling that way" and didn't seem to make any reference to aloneness.
I delineate my introvert / extrovert brain by classifying people I deem "interesting enough to talk to" and "people I'd rather not talk to". For this reason, work interactions always seem to go better than off hand social interactions. If someone is condescending or rude then I'd just rather not waste time talking to them. At this point in my life I don't really feel it's worth the effort to force social interaction in either direction, some people like you others won't - dating also gets easier if you take this approach.
Something I'm curious of is if "lonely" brains are less healthy? Also, for reference - the best point of comparison for social anxiety in my case is analogous to why I don't see the point in fancy cars. I drive a 2001 nissan, but I never worry about where I park it, if it gets dented or worry about someone keying it. If I drove a lambo, I'd constantly be worried (even subconsciously) about this kind of thing.